Legality Question for Robarm

[shane45]

Yes... I live in the peoples republic of NJ  Yes I want to scoot across the border to a free mans state. But until then, heres the question. It has been suggested to me that the "evil features" listed in the NJ statutes only apply to rifles that resemble "assault rifles" on the named banned list. Therefore rifles like the XCR that are not named, are not restricted by that statute. In other words the law has no bearing on flash hiders and folding stocks on a rifle not listed. If I am not mistaken Robarm worked with Jersy dealers to come up with a "compliant" version for NJ. I have read the statute myself and it really does read like there is no law restricting folders and such on the XCR! My question is if any additional info on the topic can be shared like the state saying no way to Robarm unless you do XYZ to the rifle first?

Thanks,
Shane

[DSM]

NJ statutes only apply to rifles that resemble "assault rifles" on the named banned list.

You mean a rifle with a pistol grip, detachable magazine and such?  That "describes" a lot of rifles out there.

[shane45]

Yes. Here in NJ the Colt AR15, for example, is banned. Now a perfectly leagle Match Hbar would be found significantly similer if it had a flash hider, Bayo lug and pistol grip. However, the XCR is not named. So it cant be significantly similer.

[triggerfish]

nope it uses a piston as opposed to a di system, it has a removable barrel, it has a side charging handle, it has a skeleton side folding stock...so I would say it's very much dissimilar to an AR. Not even close to the same rifle.

[DSM]

To us it's different but I'm not holding much faith in the system in this case.

[XCRmonger]

we have to ship them to NJ with nonfolding stocks and pinned muzzle brakes.

[shane45]

Terra, thanks for the reply. My question to you is how did you arrive at that answer? Was it the NJ dealers that told you or did you get an answer directly from the state?

Thanks so much for you help!

Shane

[Sean K.]

Careful......you  need to be asking this question of your state LE or local dealer who you'll be transferring the weapon through, not Rob Arms.  Rob Arms isn't the one who's going to enforce NJ's draconian gun laws.  Better to be safe than sorry.

Sean

[shane45]

If I had a nickle for every wrong answer I have recieved from my state on firearms.... I could buy another XCR! I was hoping that Robarm actually recieved a difinitive answer from the state somewhere along the line from higher up than I have access to.

Shane

[Sean K.]

If I had a nickle for every wrong answer I have recieved from my state on firearms.... I could buy another XCR! I was hoping that Robarm actually recieved a difinitive answer from the state somewhere along the line from higher up than I have access to.

Shane

Right....I understand b/c I've had the same experience with the DMV here and in other states.  I was just trying to let you know that just b/c RA may tell you something that they heard from the person who works for the state of NJ doesn't mean that that person is any more correct than the other times you've gotten info. 

Particularly when dealing with ATF regulations, written proof of policy doesn't even protect you.

Seems to me what you are trying to do is buy an XCR that has a folder and flash hider b/c you believe that the NJ law only bans "named" versions of "assault weapons" with certain evil features.  Terra's answer basically is telling you that you have to have a fixed stock and a pinned brake (not a flash hider by ATF definition). So regardless of what you believe the law to say with regards to specifically naming the XCR, the state or the FFL she ships to in NJ is requiring the folder/FH features to be in compliance with the ban on assault weapons.

Trying to skirt around this is, IMO, asking for trouble you don't want.

With what's happened at the SHOT show recently with gun dealers.....if I were RA I'd be extremely leery of giving any type of advice with regards to this type of question.

Sean

[kehvN]

If you were a true fist-pumping spikey-haired jagerbomb drinkin' Jersey boy you could just order it however you wanted... forget about it.

[Cid1911]

If you were a true fist-pumping spikey-haired jagerbomb drinkin' Jersey boy you could just order it however you wanted... forget about it.

Has someone been watching Jersey Shore? 

I haven't either, but I've seen the adverts.

[tk]

just to be clear: It's not what you or I or Terra thinks; it's what the New Jersey State Troopers think.  Don't ever gamble on that.

tk

[hunter s gatherer]

Right! I agree with Sean: the FFL transferee is going to be on the hook here. He should absolutely know what can come in the state and
what cannot.

I don't think the troopers as so bad, ' course I only got caught speeding. It took 5 of 'em to take down my 5'6" Dad. And he was drunk!
They said he was "wirey". Course he was a plumber that slung black pipe and LP gas around all day.

NJ: all I can say it is no place to live today. I didn't know what I was missin' til I departed it borders for freer states.

[shane45]

I already have mine. But boy it would be nice to put the folder on . I read the statute myself and to tell the truth, I think the prosecuters office would really really have a tough time because the law directly ties evil features to named weapons, which the XCR is not. But like most I just assumed it was an evil feature list. Because of that, I am sure I would get arrested  even though they would be wrong. Its not worth it to be the "test" case. Heres an excerpt from the statute:

A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be
"substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it
meets the below listed criteria:
i. A semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least
two of the following:
(1) A folding or telescoping stock;
(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(3) A bayonet mount;
(4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash
suppressor; and
(5) A grenade launcher;

[hunter s gatherer]

Well, I think Shane is saying you should move to PA!

[shane45]

I am definitaly moving to PA as soon as I can!!!

[kehvN]

If you were a true fist-pumping spikey-haired jagerbomb drinkin' Jersey boy you could just order it however you wanted... forget about it.

Has someone been watching Jersey Shore? 

I haven't either, but I've seen the adverts.

Never seen the show, lol, but just before I got out of the Army I had a soldier who was by all purposes a stereotypical "Jersey Shore" kid on the surface.  He's truly an intelligent guy and got approved for OCS on a board at the unit (not that it means THAT much, anyway)... his nickname was "guido" and he hated it!  Turns out... he dated a girl on that show on MTV and is probably perpetually embarassed by it.  Heh.

I think the prosecuters office would really really have a tough time because the law directly ties evil features to named weapons, which the XCR is not.

A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be
"substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it
meets the below listed criteria:
i. A semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least
two of the following:
(1) A folding or telescoping stock;
(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(3) A bayonet mount;
(4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash
suppressor; and
(5) A grenade launcher;

I feel your pain brother, but I think that you're just trying to justify the folder.  I'm no legalese expert but from my interpretation the exerpt from the statute isn't listing criteria for the "named assault weapons" in the manner that you understand it.  Instead this is a legal catch all.

It's stating the standard for all other semi-automatic firearms which would cause them to fall under the "assault weapon" category.  By this definition the XCR would be considered "substantially identical" to the named assault weapons if it has AT LEAST TWO items on that list.

Unfortunately even the configuration mentioned by Terra is still considered illegal.  Consider this:
     It has a pistol grip.
     It has a flash hider.
That's at least TWO items, right?  Now... but having a muzzle brake that does not hide the flash you could beat this and by making that permanent you could "never" change it to a flash hider.  I'm assuming that's what RobArm is doing since Terra is an expert and wouldn't confuse muzzle brake with flash hider.  Right Terra?  (no sarcasm present, I swear!)   

So... let's assume it's a permanently attached muzzle brake (no flash hider).  In this case the rifle would definitely bust the criteria with a folder:
    It has a pistol grip.
    It has a folding stock.
 

Long story short, move out of NJ as soon as practical.

[shane45]

Ahhh, but thats just it. They name every one. I didnt want to post the entire statute. It states the definition and then lists every one and references the list. Heres a link to the full statute for anyone interested. I have chatted with two in state ffl's that have come to the same conclusion. We all agree its just not worth the hastle however.

http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/062408_title13ch54.pdf

[kehvN]

That statute is quite the legal abortion...  This is written by law-degree holding government officials?  That line "This is not an exclusive list" made me laught out loud.  I also noticed how you have to have a permit just to purchase a weapon.  Sounds just like Illinois.  This just makes me mad when a government can outright step on our rights.

I was kinda mad enough living in Florida which is one of only 5 states with no ability to open carry... but what states like NJ and IL do are atrocious.

[shane45]

Thanks for your sympathy! Its even worse. NJ has no 2nd amendmant provision in the state constitution. All firearms are banned in NJ. You can only own through exceptions in the law. This makes your rights almost non existant here.

[Lizardman]

Yes... I live in the peoples republic of NJ  Yes I want to scoot across the border to a free mans state.

So does everyone else in NJ.  They just havent figured out the borders are open.   

[Ashraam]

I'm no legal expert either, but the way I read that is this:

It specifically names "assault rifles" that fall under the ban. Then it further states any rifle that has "two or more of the following" is identical to the specifically named rifles and therefor also falls under the ban.

[kehvN]

I'm no legal expert either, but the way I read that is this:

It specifically names "assault rifles" that fall under the ban. Then it further states any rifle that has "two or more of the following" is identical to the specifically named rifles and therefor also falls under the ban.

That's what I was getting at... but reading the exceptions, specifically the Colt Match Trigger and MIA... I understand Shane's confusion.  It makes you wonder if the XCR is "different" enough that it isn't banned.   

[Sean K.]

Thanks for your sympathy! Its even worse. NJ has no 2nd amendmant provision in the state constitution. All firearms are banned in NJ. You can only own through exceptions in the law. This makes your rights almost non existant here.

Bet you guys are hoping the 2A finds its way into incorporation with the SCOTUS case, huh?

Sean