I kind of regret buying the XCR...

[sierraglock]

Brand new rifle and had "broken it in" a little with 50 rounds or so and a few hundred dry fires.  I took it to a tactical class and all I had was problems... first trigger reset problem follwed by lots of FTE and double feeds.  Good thing I brought my LWRCi AR -- not a single problem (so the mags are OK).  There were a couple of other XCRs in the class and only one of them made it through the class without a problem.

I like the ergonomics of this rifle but honestly, I don't trust it.  My LWRCi worked out of the box, my Noveske worked out of the box, my Glocks worked out of the box.  I know many of you love your rifle and many have had no problems but given the number of others who have had problems and the "tuning" required to a new rifle, I am not sure this rifle is ready for prime time. 

Should I sell this rifle (although I don't feel that good pawning off a problem weapon to someone else)?  If not, how does one rebuild confidence in something that your life could depend on?

[jon1371usmc]

RobArms recommends 3-400 rnds on gas setting 4 for the initial break in. Do you know what setting you were on? Did you check the ejector and gas block screws were tight? Did you properly adjust the barrel bolt 250 in lbs? From the sound of it, Im guessing you have the older trigger. All that takes is a honing stone to the contact points on the trigger to smooth her out and correct the failure to resets.

Even if the rifle does have issues other than break in, you can rest assured Terra (employee at RobArms) will get you taken care of. It would probably help if you contact her directly via email or call the office. This should be your first step.

[jon1371usmc]

Oh and what kind of ammo/magazines were you using? I know you stated that they worked fine in your LWRCI.

Ill give you $750 to take that unreliable, piece of $h!# off your hands

[dont_tread_on_me]

  Not to mention BEFORE you go to any kind of shooting class,you should have function tested your rifle for reliability.A class is no place to find out your rifle isn't 100%.If it's not,the issues should be addressed before attending.As mentioned on other threads here,the problems you see posted are a small portion of XCR owners.You don't always hear how many run well.If you can't get it to run,as mentioned,Terra will make it right.Robinson customer support is Class A.

[EricCartmann]

I know how you feel man, a gun that does not work right out of the box can really get you down.  I had problems with the XCR myself, FTF, FTE, crappy trigger, ejector coming loose, and light primer strikes.  All of these issues have since been resolved and now I trust the gun 100%.

I too was about to give up on the XCR but then I came on this forum and with the help of Terra and others, I got my gun working the way it's suppose to.  I guess if it was not for Terra I might have sold my XCR too. 

For first 400 rounds I recommend shooting NATO ammo on gas setting 5 and also make sure it is well lubed.  The XCR seems to be tight from the get go so you will have to break it in a little to get everything moving smoothly.  All my FTE and FTF happened before the first 100 rounds because I ran her dry and did not break her in on the highest gas setting with hot ammo like was suggested by Robarms.

For the ejector, they now come loctited from the factory, but mine was not and it caused all kinds of misfeeds because of cases FTE.  Once I properly put it back in place with red loctite she has not given me problem since.

The crappy trigger is now replaced with a new trigger that is just as nice as my Giselle.  Good triggers are well worth the money, and even though the new trigger feels like a "match" trigger, Robarms claim it is a "combat" trigger, so at least you have some assurance it will be reliable through the years (unlike match triggers).

My LPS problems occurred after my Bill Sprinfield trigger job and even then only with Wolf ammo.  Not a big deal to some, but I shoot Wolf a lot so it bugged me.  The LPS problem disappeared once I got the new trigger.

Another thing I would recommend is if you ever take the barrel off is to make sure it goes back in properly seated.  I have heard problems from others, FTF, FTE, if the barrel was not properly seated.  Might also want to run the gas tube holes up as some claim it runs better that way.

Good luck and I hope you get her working.

[native]

Jack-O is out for the moment, but will return shortly 

[Mr. Riggs]

Brand new rifle and had "broken it in" a little with 50 rounds or so and a few hundred dry fires.  I took it to a tactical class and all I had was problems... first trigger reset problem follwed by lots of FTE and double feeds.  Good thing I brought my LWRCi AR -- not a single problem (so the mags are OK).  There were a couple of other XCRs in the class and only one of them made it through the class without a problem.

I like the ergonomics of this rifle but honestly, I don't trust it.  My LWRCi worked out of the box, my Noveske worked out of the box, my Glocks worked out of the box.  I know many of you love your rifle and many have had no problems but given the number of others who have had problems and the "tuning" required to a new rifle, I am not sure this rifle is ready for prime time. 

Should I sell this rifle (although I don't feel that good pawning off a problem weapon to someone else)?  If not, how does one rebuild confidence in something that your life could depend on?

Sorry to hear that you had all those problems.

It is very disappointing, for sure, when you are trying to learn skills and the rifle throws you off.

I too have had a shit load of problems even with  a properly "broken in" rifle.

It's my opinion that there seems to be some quality control issues with a percentage of rifles leaving the factory and if you have one of those it will take a period of time to iron out the various issues.

I've had my rifle five months and have had to send it back to the factory twice and I have had to replace my hammer spring twice and other parts were replace because of consequences of out-of-spec parts.

I don't mind really, I'm interested to get the gun going to see if it will finally work semi-reliably and can have the money in the gun without worrying too much about selling it. Is my trust in the rifle affected? Yes.

I also have a couple of back up guns that work out-of-the-box that I can rely on as you do.

There are going to be many people here trying to find fault in you, the "operator", but do not take it to heart.

If you want to ride out the problems and send the gun in and spend quite a lot of time trying to figure out the problem to get it working only to have, in the back of your mind, that the rifle might fail again so I better use may solid gun for serious defensive use and training you might consider selling it and moving on.

If, on the other hand, you want to ride out the problems and have the gun around for fun knowing that your going to have to baby it to get it to run for any period of time, then keep it knowing that.


Putting on my flame proof suit now!

[EricCartmann]

Mr Riggs, you have been very patient with your XCR.  I don't know if I would have been as patient as you 

[Mr. Riggs]

Mr Riggs, you have been very patient with your XCR.  I don't know if I would have been as patient as you 

Well, right now, I'd grab my Noveske for everything and anything important.

The XCR is going to take a while to get back in my good books.

But, I must say, Terra has been excellent and I look forward to getting my new barrel back to put it through the paces again.

[DSM]

Sucks dude, really does.  But, what I say, and before you do anything else, strip the rifle down and check for anything wrong (BMW=Broken, Missing, Worn) and then run 2-300rds of good quality ammo through it to see what shakes loose from the whole situation.  Maybe it "fixes" itself, or, you'll be able to paint a better picture of what's happening in there to help RobArm get your rig back up and running.  Try different mags too, as many as you have, I've seen on here that some XCR's don't like PMags.  Maybe it's other mags too?

[comfortzone]

Reading this makes me feel really lucky.  My gun is now broken in and I've not had one issue or problem with it.  It must have been checked out before shipping by Terra.  Mine has been fantastic and I have now purchased another that should arrive within the next few days.  My original gun is about 1 year old.  Is their something I should be checking or be concerned with on my original xcr?

[MickeyC]

Hey if you don't want it, let me know how much you want for it.

[SDDuc996]

Reading this gives me an idea.

When I get back stateside, I will offer my services of breaking in peoples rifles for them. For a small nominal fee of course (To cover the cost of ammo.)

Imagine, receiving a rifle that you don't have to laboriously break in! Hell, I'll even zero the irons for you!

Business cards are at the printing shop!

[sierraglock]

Guys, thanks for the replies.  For the background info:

- rifle cleaned and very well lubed
- gas setting at the max (i.e. 4)
- I know I didn't have the opfficial 400 "break-in" rounds so I was taking a chance, hence the back-up gun. (On the otherhand, why does a combat-oriented weapon need so many rounds to break-in?)
- Mags were a combo of Magpul and some quality metal mags with non-tilt followers.
- Ammo was all Federal 62 or 64 gr.  I might have had some Lake City in the pile.
- All screws were checked before, during and after.

I am sure I must have the old trigger.  It is noticeably "gritty", especially in comparison to my other rifles. 

Well I will probably work out the issues and then sell it.  No need to pass the frustration onto some one else.

Really, we customers should not be "beta" testers for something this critical.  There is a lot to like about the XCR but you guys with problem rifles are really patient with what the company has put out into the market place. 

[recon]

Seems that they are always updateing there parts. For the price of this rifle I would think it should be perfect. But it seems to still have issues. It's a fine platform but it still has some glitches.

[sierraglock]

Seems that they are always updateing there parts.

That's exactly the problem.  We are doing their R&D for them.  Customers are reporting the problems, and being responsive, they rev the parts.  (That's probably how I ended up with a new rifle that has the "old" trigger -- my rifle missed the rev cycle).  It's nice that their customer support is so supportive.  Personally I think it would be much better if we never had to deal with their customer support!  You guys with fully functional rifles are lucky. 

It seems simply that they haven't tested enough, or worse, they let it go out the door knowing that it isn't quite right.  Probably a bit of both: they don't have enough capital to do complete testing so they sell product a little too early because they need the revenue to continue funding operations.  This is not unique with a lot of companies, under-capitalized or otherwise. 

As consumers we may be willing to put up with a DVD player that malfunctions but I am not sure it should be acceptable for this kind of product.  And that's the key issue here, the intended purpose of the product.  Shouldn't all the "old" triggers have been recalled?  That would have been the right thing to do if you believe in your product.  Heck, my Honda gas motor got a recall for a faulty gas cap. 

I am not sure how long a business like this can continue.  Perhaps the owner has a lot of personal capital to continue to invest in operations and can make it to the other side before frustrated customers overwhelm new customers.  Even you guys with fully functional rifles should be vocal about quality.  At the end of the day, you would want this company to survive and the only way it will is by building high quality products.

OK, off of my soap box! 

[Cid1911]

I agree that the XCR should work out of the box. Mine did. Mine also had the old trigger, which worked fine but it apparently wasn't as crisp as the new one. From a function standpoint though, I couldn't fault it and I also had great accuracy for a 16" carbine of that type.

[EricCartmann]

Once you get it to work all will be forgotten.

[Underground]

Both of mine worked fine out of the box, with the old trigger.  The new one is nicer, but there's nothing wrong with the other.

If you're having problems just contact Terra, they'll certainly take care of you.

And if you want to sell it, I'm sure you'll find willing buyers.

[aziator]

I really can't say more than anyone else has except I wont sugar coat it.  The instructions are there for a reason.  This isn't the first gun gun I have purchased with a recommended break-in, High end 1911's usually require it (and they are hand fitted and should run like a clock out of the box).  I think breaking in a barrel on a long-gun is stupid but I see guys spending multiple range trips doing that without ever firing a group to see how it shoots.  If the manufacturer recommends it though, I would do it (assuming they provide detailed instructions such as the ones the come with the XCR).

I do feel for you taking the gun to a class and it not running.  What class were you attending that had so many other XCRs in it?  Most classes I have heard of usually only have 1 XCR as they just aren't that popular yet (unless John F ran the class in Utah).

If you want to sell it, problems and all, let me know.  I can probably find someone pretty quick that wants it.

[MickeyC]

The break-in is a pain in the ass but it is manageable. The only reason for it is to allow mating surfaces to align and have the coating removed. Yes this is more expensive as it involves both time and machining.

I don't agree with it either, but it's not that hard to live with. You can use the session to learn the controls and zero so it's not like the ammo is wasted.

None of my AR's, FS2000 or FALs needed break-in for the mechanical operation.

Once it is done properly however, the rifle will be 100% as long as you follow instructions.

[ny32182]

The "break in" for almost all my firearms involves taking them to the range and shooting a few hundred rounds, which I was going to do anyway, regardless of whether it was "broken in" previously.

The one exception is my SA58; DSA recommends a shoot/clean/shoot/clean cycle for the first few rounds; I was skeptical but did it since the factory recommended it.  That rifle also needed a polishing of the receiver rails before it would feed well.  That was a bit frustrating until I figured out what was going on, but once I did, and did what needed to be done, it has been 100% since, and now I love the rifle for what it is.  When I got my second DSA I knew what needed to be done from the start, did it, and had no issues.

It was way more of a pain in the ass than the XCR break in, which called for taking 300 rounds to the range an firing them on gas setting 4.  My pleasure.  I'd be happy to "break it in" more often. 

Evidently not 100% of XCR "break-ins" go as smoothly as mine did, but hopefully after you get the issues worked out you will like the rifle.  If not, like has been said, you shouldn't have a problem selling it.

The new triggers have been standard for a few months now, so your rifle has to be at least that old.  My rifle came before the new trigger, and I bought the parts relatively recently.  Based on some dry fire, I think it is a great upgrade in feel.

[Ashraam]

I was one of the guys who had a lot of problems with my XCR out of the box. It took several trips to the range, sending in my barrel, then sending in the entire rifle to finally get it running like it should.

My rifle was a nightmare of QC problems that honestly shouldn't have left the factory as it did. Out of spec gas block, ejection port not milled properly, chamber not polished properly. I was getting quite frustrated and I wasn't too far from where the OP is now. I was beginning to wonder if I had made a mistake.

However, Robinson Arms, especially Terra stood behind the product. I didn't even specifically contact them with my problems as I wasn't sure what I was experiencing could be directly related to a defect with the rifle or not. Terra contacted me through my range report posts and asked me to let her make things right. Eventually everything got ironed out and I've put nearly 1000 rounds through my XCR without a single problem since.

I can certainly sympathize with the OP, but I really don't believe there is a problem with the XCR platform. QC definitely needs to be reigned in, but the design itself is sound, in my opinion.

No offense meant, but you made a mistake bringing your XCR to a carbine class without following the break-in procedure. I understand that your other rifles worked fine out of the box but the XCR does have a clearly outlined procedure to follow right in your owners manual as well as reiterated numerous times on these forums. Maybe you could have identified and rectified the problems with your rifle before the class had you done so.

I guess my bottom line is, I'm extremely happy with my XCR and I definitely don't regret my purchase. Hell, if I had the money I'd own another one. I'd even buy yours, as is, because I know Robinson will make it right. Just as they will for you, if you let them.

[dont_tread_on_me]

My rifle was a nightmare of QC problems that honestly shouldn't have left the factory as it did. Out of spec gas block, ejection port not milled properly, chamber not polished properly. I was getting quite frustrated and I wasn't too far from where the OP is now. I was beginning to wonder if I had made a mistake.

  I agree,QC could use a boost.I also can understand buying a product that's not what you hoped for and expected,and the accompanied frustration.No excuses,but other companies do have their issues just like this as well.I'm also certain the platform is sound.

No offense meant, but you made a mistake bringing your XCR to a carbine class without following the break-in procedure. I understand that your other rifles worked fine out of the box but the XCR does have a clearly outlined procedure to follow right in your owners manual as well as reiterated numerous times on these forums. Maybe you could have identified and rectified the problems with your rifle before the class had you done so.

  That was the point I was trying to make in my other post exactly.NEVER take a new firearm of any kind to a class before you have confirmed reliability through several hundred rounds of live fire...period!
  Frankly I don't understand why break-in is a pain in the ass,Mickey you yourself have said and I quote

"At the end of the day you can't trust your life to anything unless you do a function check on all the parts".

In fact Terra uses it as here sig line now.It's great advice,in fact I don't know of a single one of you that have actually been in combat that would pick up a weapon previously untested and intentionally go to a gunfight.No one goes to a gunfight on purpose if they can help it,but you know what I mean.
 

As consumers we may be willing to put up with a DVD player that malfunctions but I am not sure it should be acceptable for this kind of product.  And that's the key issue here, the intended purpose of the product.  Shouldn't all the "old" triggers have been recalled?Shouldn't all the "old" triggers have been recalled?  That would have been the right thing to do if you believe in your product.  Heck, my Honda gas motor got a recall for a faulty gas cap. 

   The old triggers were not perfect but they worked and did not put any one in danger as a faulty gas cap possibly could.There are worse triggers out there than the old XCR trigger.My PTR-91 had a trigger you had to stand on to make it go bang and it's not a "cheap" rifle either.Plus you kind of contradicted yourself.Cars serve important roles as well,and can be a big safety risk if certain parts fail,and they cost a lot more than rifles,yet they are constantly recalled,so your "willing to accept a DVD player but not a rifle" really makes no sense.

Even you guys with fully functional rifles should be vocal about quality.

  I agree and even though through close to ten thousand rounds my rifle has never missed a beat (when using good magazines) I still say QC need to be top spec.Your right your reputation is based on bad reviews not good ones,so every bad one erases a hundred good ones.The point is give no one reason to complain because of problems you didn't catch.
.............................................................................................

   To the O.P.,what type of malfunctions were they,how frequent? What did the ejection pattern look like,if you were watching.this can tell you a lot about what's going on.

[EricCartmann]

Speaking FALs and reliability, have you checked out the FALfiles recently?  Lately there has been lots and lots of problems reported with DSA guns right out of the box.

What's my point?  Even the FAL, the most reliable rifle ever, and DSA, the best FAL builder in this country, are not immune to QC problems.

[Jack-O]

Sorry to hear about your problems.  It's unfortuenate that you were unable to read thru the forums before your class, many people find they are very helpful and can avoid doing what you did here

Guys, thanks for the replies.  For the background info:

- rifle cleaned and very well lubed   good job
- gas setting at the max (i.e. 4)     excellent
- I know I didn't have the opfficial 400 "break-in" rounds so I was taking a chance, hence the back-up gun. (On the otherhand, why does a combat-oriented weapon need so many rounds to break-in?)  bad idea with ANY rifle actually.  All rifles need to break in  to some extent, the XCR is no exception, and the breakin period is well documented as being required.  I have several "combat weapons"  including AK's that all run MUCH better after they have had several hundered rounds or even as many as 600 rounds, put thru them.  the XCR is not alone in this area, but they DO at least have the balls to publish this need
- Mags were a combo of Magpul and some quality metal mags with non-tilt followers.  excellent
- Ammo was all Federal 62 or 64 gr.  I might have had some Lake City in the pile.   should be fine
- All screws were checked before, during and after.   good job

I am sure I must have the old trigger.  It is noticeably "gritty", especially in comparison to my other rifles.    not necessarily an indicator, as it sounds like the trigger was not resetting anyway

Well I will probably work out the issues and then sell it.  No need to pass the frustration onto some one else.  I hope you dont do that, when we get it settled, you are gonna love the thing

Really, we customers should not be "beta" testers for something this critical.  There is a lot to like about the XCR but you guys with problem rifles are really patient with what the company has put out into the market place. 

in fairness, you failed to follow the directions and knew the consequences.  it sucks, but thems the facts It's important to realize that these forums are in fact a clearing house for problem rifles, and there is the tendancy to beleive that there is a high percentage of failures with the rifle due to what we see here.  You should consider that there are thousands of happy XCR owners that never comment about their rifel because it just runs right, and in internet land, no-one listens to the quiet voice of satisfaction.

Dont give up on the XCR yet.  you should chalk this one up to an operator fail, and send the rifle in to RA for a good once over, now that you have a few rounds thru her.  Terra will get you figured out, then get it back to you.

If anyone knows about problems with the XCR and trusting it, it's me.  I had my first gun kaboom on me due to a short chamber, then had some other issue after that.  RA made it right with a new rifle, and it's been ticking along like a clock since then.  The more time you get with it, learning about it, the more you'll appreciate what it can do and come to trust it, in spite of that initial "breach of trust" you are feeling now.

The strongest supporters of the XCR are the ones who had problems to start, learned about the rifle, then worked them out.

[sierraglock]

yet they are constantly recalled,so your "willing to accept a DVD player but not a rifle" really makes no sense.

Well that's the point.  Cars do get recalled because there is a safety issue. DVD players don't.  Where do you think guns should lie on that spectrum?

Anyhow guys, thanks for the responses.  Don't get too caught up in my bringing the rifle to a class.  I knew I was taking a chance not having fired *all* 400 break-in rounds.  Hence the back-up or should I say, primary rifle.  I probably would have been just as frustrated with the rifle during a full break-in since my version seems to be a jam-o-matic.

I probably have 300+ through the XCR now, and it still has problems.  I like the platform, I don't like how the company has brought the product to market.

[EricCartmann]

Well that's the point.  Cars do get recalled because there is a safety issue. DVD players don't.  Where do you think guns should lie on that spectrum?

Anyhow guys, thanks for the responses.  Don't get too caught up in my bringing the rifle to a class.  I knew I was taking a chance not having fired *all* 400 break-in rounds.  Hence the back-up or should I say, primary rifle.  I probably would have been just as frustrated with the rifle during a full break-in since my version seems to be a jam-o-matic.

I probably have 300+ through the XCR now, and it still has problems.  I like the platform, I don't like how the company has brought the product to market.

I know how you feel man.  I had to break in my Lancaster AK and my Enterprise FAL.  A combat gun should not need breaking in, but hey that's the way it goes when you try to mate parts from different part kits from different countries in different era's.

Now I have just accepted that a you should break in a gun before really testing it.  It's not like wasted time either, as you have to zero and familiarize yourself with the controls anyways.

My Enterprise I had to work on myself to get it right.  The feed ramps were rough and I had to take a file to the the underside of the receiver to smooth it all out (got this advice from the FALfiles).  The gas plug on it is still frozen and I have to get around to fixing that next.  This is a new gun built from an Imbel Parts kit with Enterprise Receiver 

[Ashraam]

yet they are constantly recalled,so your "willing to accept a DVD player but not a rifle" really makes no sense.

Well that's the point.  Cars do get recalled because there is a safety issue. DVD players don't.  Where do you think guns should lie on that spectrum?

Anyhow guys, thanks for the responses.  Don't get too caught up in my bringing the rifle to a class.  I knew I was taking a chance not having fired *all* 400 break-in rounds.  Hence the back-up or should I say, primary rifle.  I probably would have been just as frustrated with the rifle during a full break-in since my version seems to be a jam-o-matic.

I probably have 300+ through the XCR now, and it still has problems.  I like the platform, I don't like how the company has brought the product to market.

I can't blame you for being frustrated. Mine was a double-feeding monster, so I've been there.

All I can say is, if what you say above is true, give Robinson a chance to make good on it. Then put a few hundred, or thousand rounds through it to see how you feel about it. (Or however many it takes for you to trust your rifle again.) If that's too much of an investment for you, I have no doubt you can probably recover most of your purchase price.

Either way, I wish you good luck!

[EricCartmann]

Oh and BTW, LWRC's are also not immune to QC problems either.  You just happened to be landed a LWRC rifle that does not need break in and a XCR rifle that does need break in.  But like I said, once you get everything working you will forget all about these break in pains.

[dont_tread_on_me]

Well that's the point.  Cars do get recalled because there is a safety issue. DVD players don't.  Where do you think guns should lie on that spectrum?

  Well obviously if it's a safety issue,but the old XCR trigger is NOT a safety issue.Lets be perfectly honest and clear here.I don't like bad QC issues anymore than anyone but it has happened to most any manufacturer at one time or another.I'm sure RA won't be the last gunmaker to miss a bad part.I wish it didn't happen to anyone,but that's not being realistic.What matters the most is how the situation is taken care of when an occasional bad part is missed.You can't recall every rifle when most work,unless it's a safety issue.So you give excellent customer support and redouble your efforts to not let it happen again by stepping up QC.I could be wrong but it seems like your assuming that they are complacently sending out a rifle that hasn't been fully tested before it went into production,and that is simply not the case.
  If your having the high numbers of malfunctions as you indicate,you probably have a bad gas block or something out of spec,which can and will (if given the chance) be resolved by Robinson.I'm not saying you have to like it or be happy about it,because I assure you,if it were me I wouldn't be either.What I can tell you is that the rifle will run properly if it is within it's design specs.I encourage an open mind.If after you get it back and still can't bring yourself to trust it,then I'm sure you can sell it,maybe even at a profit.I know the issues some have had,but I would not hesitate to buy yours from you right now if I had the money,because I know they will run,and I know RA will make it right if it doesn't.

[XCRmonger]

Why doesn't anyone contact me when they have issues like this? Why put it on a forum first, instead of allowing me to do my job and make sure you are 100% satisfied with your rifle?

[MickeyC]

I suspect most people assume they will get crappy service and that a forum is quicker. That and new folks just don't know you yet!

[Nomad]

Why doesn't anyone contact me when they have issues like this? Why put it on a forum first, instead of allowing me to do my job and make sure you are 100% satisfied with your rifle?

I am sure many (at least those who read the forum at all without ranting first) aren't sure if their issue is user or rifle problem.  I have questioned many times with my 7.62 kit and wheter something is wrong with it more than just mags, or if I could do something different to make it perform, but the more I tinker and test the more it points to mags.  Anyhow... my point is I woudln't get to upset that someone doesn't contact you.  If they don't, they obviously just don't realize that the best part of the rifle they have purchased is, that even if broken, they are going to get the best possible service.  (Try getting that from a large gun manufacturer!!!) 

[dogboy]

Seems to me a gun that requires some break-in to run properly is an indication of tightly-fitting parts. Whether that is something to like or not is a matter of opinion.

I would liken taking a rifle to a class unproven as being similar, albeit not as risky to life and limb, as taking a brand new revolver or pistol out of its box, sticking it in a holster, and going on patrol. One is unwise (class), one is downright stupid (patrol).

As far as end-users doing DT&E on products, it happens all the time. And it happens with other gun manufacturers. Some admit it, some don't, some get caught at it. I know of at least one case where one of the large manufacturers had a gun with a problem in a customer's hands. It was sent back, corrected (it was a tolerance stack issue), and the manufacturer made a go/no-go tool for their manufacturing process based on this tolerance stack issue.

And lets look at Ruger. Is it 2 or 3 of their last 4 new releases that have had large scale recalls? It happens. BUT, I will tell you from personal experience that Ruger is one large gun manufacturer that you cannot expect anyone's customer service to exceed. Ruger is excellent in that regard. As is Robinson, it sounds like.

[MickeyC]

If you ever want to rely on something, test it and make sure the parts all work as intended. If you rely on it without having tested it, don't blame the manufacturer, blame yourself assuming you are still alive.

[SSBiggun]

 I bought a brand new dodge challenger. I filled up it's gas tank and went right out to the race track. Fuckin thing would only run 18 second quarter mile's. all the other cars were faster than mine. there were a couple of other challenger's there and they didn't perform any better. the challenger must be a pos.

 Can you find anything wrong with the above paragraph? Many people have never bought a new car and been told about Breaking in the new engine if its done right your car will last several hundred-thousand miles. If not done right you doom it to a short life filled with problems. I wonder if anyone ever complains on the internet about that issue on the car forums?
  If the XCR isn't up to your standards then sell it. but don't come here or anywhere else and bash it.
 I'm in my mid 40's and I remember a time before the internet when if you had something you didn't like or had a problem with you would go to the manufacturer or the dealer to resolve it. Not the internet. If you won't give them the benefit of trying to satisfy the customer before starting a thread like this what does that make you?
 
 That's probably the longest post I have made here and I hope I didn't come across as any more than a guy who thinks you made a mistake and then compounded it further by your post. 

[ny32182]

Speaking FALs and reliability, have you checked out the FALfiles recently?  Lately there has been lots and lots of problems reported with DSA guns right out of the box.

What's my point?  Even the FAL, the most reliable rifle ever, and DSA, the best FAL builder in this country, are not immune to QC problems.

I definitely agree with the sentiment.

My DSA's are roughly '04/'05 vintage (I bought the first as a "celebration" of the AWB ending; ordered it before the sunset and had it delivered in ban-free config shortly after... and then the second was probably roughly a year later).  I have not followed the new ones closely in a while, so am not familiar with whatever issues they may be having right now.  Hopefully they'll get it sorted.

[MickeyC]

I suspet that, as with a lot of companies recently, product was being rammed outthe door due to the huge demand spike and quality suffered. It will come back under control soon enough. Even RobArm has had quality isuses, but with Terra the robArm issues can get fixed quickly. customer service is something RobArms has got right and been doing well for a few years now.

[sierraglock]

But the new car ran didn't it?  When you break in an engine (I used to race cars so I know something about this) do you expect it to sputter and fail to run during the break-in period?

I think weapons need to be held to a higher standard and we should be demanding that.   

Howerver, if y'all are offended by what comes across as just bashing, the moderator is welcome to delete this thread.

I bought a brand new dodge challenger. I filled up it's gas tank and went right out to the race track. Fuckin thing would only run 18 second quarter mile's. all the other cars were faster than mine. there were a couple of other challenger's there and they didn't perform any better. the challenger must be a pos.

 Can you find anything wrong with the above paragraph? Many people have never bought a new car and been told about Breaking in the new engine if its done right your car will last several hundred-thousand miles. If not done right you doom it to a short life filled with problems. I wonder if anyone ever complains on the internet about that issue on the car forums?
  If the XCR isn't up to your standards then sell it. but don't come here or anywhere else and bash it.
 I'm in my mid 40's and I remember a time before the internet when if you had something you didn't like or had a problem with you would go to the manufacturer or the dealer to resolve it. Not the internet. If you won't give them the benefit of trying to satisfy the customer before starting a thread like this what does that make you?
 
 That's probably the longest post I have made here and I hope I didn't come across as any more than a guy who thinks you made a mistake and then compounded it further by your post. 

[ElChicano]

You need to remember everything ever made on this planet, whether it's a toaster, electric razor, or rifle all will have units that will not work.  This will never be eliminated.  No matter how big the company is.  No matter how many millions they spend on quality control this will always happen.  If you had purchased a Playstation 3 and it wasn't working, you would contact sony for help, correct?  Sure, you would get pissed and call the PS3 a pile of junk, but you still want it to work so you send it in and it gets fixed, then all is good.  The people that have responded are just trying to help.  If they seem like they are mad at you or something, they aren't.  You obviously want your XCR to work.  Just talk to terra and she'll get it running like it should.  You definately will enjoy it.  On a side note, my XBOX 360 has had the red ring of death 3 times.  But it's still a good product and I enjoy it more than my PS3 that has never had any problems.

Good luck dude

[EricCartmann]

You are free to complain away here, don't worry about getting banned or having your post deleted.

[ny32182]

Yep, never seen any deletion of legitimate threads here...

Everyone agrees that the gun should run during break in.  I'm 100% on the same page with you there.  Most of them do.  The question you have to ask is whether you are really interested in getting it fixed or not.  If so, send it in and let Terra do her thing... if not, sell it and move on.

I've never done the carbine class thing, but if I did, I would bring two, or maybe even three guns that I know work, at least to that point.

[Jack-O]

But the new car ran didn't it?  When you break in an engine (I used to race cars so I know something about this) do you expect it to sputter and fail to run during the break-in period?

I think weapons need to be held to a higher standard and we should be demanding that.   

Howerver, if y'all are offended by what comes across as just bashing, the moderator is welcome to delete this thread.

The reason the XCR needs a break-in is that it's the ONLY rifle ever made that is completely modular.  Every single component on the rifle is made to be swapped out by the user with some hex keys and a couple of box wrenches.  No special armorers tools are needed, and NO HAND FITTING OF THE COMPONENTS ARE NEEDED (more importantly).

What does this mean??  It means that the process of breaking in it actually the "hand fitting" that works thru minor tolerance stacking and thus allows the factory to assemble rifles with minimally trained workers, and allows universal parts swapping without  the need for a smith.  This also means that it would lend itself to mass production.

a Gunsmith repairs or modifies or makes components to make a gun work or work better

an Armourer swaps out components, and checks tolerances using special tools to bring the weapon back into specs

a User field strips, lubricates and cleans  then fires and makes functional adjustments like gas, sights, mag changes etc.

A civilian, kinda does all three so some extent depending on individual skill. 

the XCR owner is firmly planted between an Armorer and a User by owning this rifle.  This is both and advantage and a disadvantage in that it requires the owner to become more involved with his weapon that was previously required with other systems.

There has never been a rifle like that before, so there is not a broad understanding of this process.  this leads to the obvious question "why do i NEED to break this weapon in??  I dont need to do it with the AR...."

Now, this explanation will answer that question for you.

[EricCartmann]

Yep, never seen any deletion of legitimate threads here...

Everyone agrees that the gun should run during break in.  I'm 100% on the same page with you there.  Most of them do.  The question you have to ask is whether you are really interested in getting it fixed or not.  If so, send it in and let Terra do her thing... if not, sell it and move on.

I've never done the carbine class thing, but if I did, I would bring two, or maybe even three guns that I know work, at least to that point.

I feel confident bringing my one XCR, if it can do mag dumps at my home range it should have no problems at a carbine class.  Only thing I would do different during break in is run her at a higher gas setting and make sure she is liberally lubed.

[terrorist hunter]

If you're going to clean it up before selling it anyway, wouldn't you at least consider trying it out for a few hundred more rounds?  While I totally understand your point of view, it seems like a waste to take the effort to fix it up so that it will be reliable for the next guy...and then sell it.     The trigger wasn't upgraded because it didn't work, it was upgraded because there was one that worked better.  The same reason we want cars with ABS as opposed to the standard braking systems offered 20 years go.  You got a fluke, and there are a few out there, but before you sell (a rifle I'd love to buy if funds permitted), why not consider that it's simply different than what you're used to and will be reliable with some TLC to make it YOURS. 

[SSBiggun]

But the new car ran didn't it?  When you break in an engine (I used to race cars so I know something about this) do you expect it to sputter and fail to run during the break-in period?

I think weapons need to be held to a higher standard and we should be demanding that.   

Howerver, if y'all are offended by what comes across as just bashing, the moderator is welcome to delete this thread.

I bought a brand new dodge challenger. I filled up it's gas tank and went right out to the race track. Fuckin thing would only run 18 second quarter mile's. all the other cars were faster than mine. there were a couple of other challenger's there and they didn't perform any better. the challenger must be a pos.

 Can you find anything wrong with the above paragraph? Many people have never bought a new car and been told about Breaking in the new engine if its done right your car will last several hundred-thousand miles. If not done right you doom it to a short life filled with problems. I wonder if anyone ever complains on the internet about that issue on the car forums?
  If the XCR isn't up to your standards then sell it. but don't come here or anywhere else and bash it.
 I'm in my mid 40's and I remember a time before the internet when if you had something you didn't like or had a problem with you would go to the manufacturer or the dealer to resolve it. Not the internet. If you won't give them the benefit of trying to satisfy the customer before starting a thread like this what does that make you?
 
 That's probably the longest post I have made here and I hope I didn't come across as any more than a guy who thinks you made a mistake and then compounded it further by your post. 

While I wasn't offended and hope you weren't either I will write this,
 I find ALL firearms neat. Hell I think that a Win 94 pre 1929 in cal. .30 WCF to be a pretty cool firearm. I can guarantee not everyone else will.  If I were faced with a decision to grab a rifle and go into harms way I would not pick my XCR. Not out of a lack of trust in it but because I have a lot of options and I am really impartial to my CMP M-1. Everyone that knows me knows I have more firearms than anyone will ever need. I do rate the XCR as one of the best 5.56mm semi auto carbines built.  I can't tell you what you should do with your property. If you want to give it a second chance and give Terra & RA the opportunity to make it right then that's what I think you should do. I just think you should have done it before posting your issue and then if it still wasn't taken care of to your satisfaction then you can complain away.

[sierraglock]

Guys (and gals) thanks for your replies and even admonishments. Given everyone's passion around this, you have persuaded me not to flake out on the XCR.   As I have said, I like this platform.  I think it has one of the best ergonomics, I particularly like the bolt release.  Heck, I love the way it aggressively ejects casings 15 feet away!

Terra's reached out -- bless her!  Turning a critic into fan creates one of the biggest supporters.

[dont_tread_on_me]

If you like it now wait till it's running the way they are capable of and you will understand the passion even more. 

[SINKER]

Yeah, if you don't PROPERLY break in your new XCR, it's YOUR fault if it doesn't work properly!  PERIOD!  The day I take a race car out on the track and try to run it wide open, or to the top of it's operating parameters, I am going to CRASH!  Checking bolts, nuts, lubes, etc and PRESSURES are REQUIRED!  As far as the "old" trigger goes....when I got my "new" trigger, I was actually uneasy about switching it out because my "old" trigger was GREAT!  NO slap, no misfires, no weak primer hits, a GREAT pull of about 6-8 lbs, firm as could be....  I have had ONE ejection problem, almost certainly caused by a weak primer OR powder charge......  Put you XCR up for sale at a decent price and see how long it is before you have hard cash for it.......sorry to lose you though.  You are and will be missing a true pleasure in shooting.

[williamxcr]

I am known as an XCR basher here, but honestly... It's a great rifle, I would atleast have the problems corrected, do the proper 400rd break-in, and give it another chance before selling it.

[XCRmonger]

sierra, any time you are ready to send it to me, i'll be standing by.

[marinewmu911]

From what I understand of modern manufacturing of ANY firearm, they all require a "break in" period. I recommend 100 rounds on any and all platforms that do not have a more stringent procedure from the factory. For the 1st ten I clean after every shot, running a bore snake through the barrel is quickest and most effective. Did this most recently on a friends M&P15, I can tell you that after the first shot it took both of us, me pulling the receiver and him the snake, to get it to run through, the accuracy was not what I'd read about and the grouping was bleh at best.

We completed the first 10 and started running 2 round strings through it, even now the rifle was noticeably running more smoothly (all this was done dry) we then moved up to 5 round strings and after the first one I was getting a 1.5-2" group kneeling cold in the snow at 75 to 100 yards (groups were very consistent).

Not saying the QC couldn't be better, it could, it always can, you're going to get the best results, identify defects, and be able to correct them or have the manufacturer correct them best if you "break in" or work in anything slowly. This goes for ALL firearms I talk to people about, it builds confidence in the system, helps you learn its quirks, and forces you to take your time.

[MickeyC]

That is actually not true.

Break-in is only required because the various mating surfaces are not machine finished. The coating is left in place and the act of break-in wears these finishes off to let the parts interact smoothly.

Perform the break-in as required and if the rifle still exhibits isuses send it to Terra and she will sort out whatever is wrong with it. RobArm does have occasional QC errors but Terra resolves these quickly. My own rifle was quite early on in the production run and it was flakey during the first three hundred rounds or so. After that the weapon has been flawless.

[Underground]

That is actually not true.

Break-in is only required because the various mating surfaces are not machine finished. The coating is left in place and the act of break-in wears these finishes off to let the parts interact smoothly.

Perform the break-in as required and if the rifle still exhibits isuses send it to Terra and she will sort out whatever is wrong with it. RobArm does have occasional QC errors but Terra resolves these quickly. My own rifle was quite early on in the production run and it was flakey during the first three hundred rounds or so. After that the weapon has been flawless.

Yep.  And if you factored in the extra time and labor that would be involved in doing that, I'll take mine at the price point they're at now thank you.   

[dont_tread_on_me]

Yep.  And if you factored in the extra time and labor that would be involved in doing that, I'll take mine at the price point they're at now thank you.   

  Exactly.Hand fitting parts are only done by custom gunsmiths/companies that's one reason why they cost so much.Even hand fitted 1911's should be broken in because of how snugly they are fit.I doubt very many production gun manufacturers spend the time and money on those kind of procedures.No matter the machine they all "wear in" with use.Even a $50,000 Nascar engine needs to seat the rings before it will perform at it's maximum potential.

[Twisted Jester]

Yup, break in and maintenance are very important parts of owning any sort of machinery.  But if this break in process is really too much for you to handle just send your weapon and ammo to me and I'll break it in for you, for $5 extra I'll even clean it for you.    But seriously, all this talk about break in being a bad thing is a little silly, you're learning how your weapon/ammo/magazines all function together.  You may end up with a bad combo, shit happens and you know what you can/cannot depend on.  I've had two "malfunctions" in my XCR-L in the break in process, once was a stovepipe where I learned to check the gas settings, and another was when a round failed to seat properly and when I went to eject the round powder went everywhere, I learned not to trust other people's reloads.  Use this time to your advantage, get to know your new girlfriend (or boyfriend depending on branch of service  ) and go have fun.  If you do have any legit problems Terra is an amazing Gal and she will make it right, she even put up with me  So go break in your rifle (aka, "use" it which is what you bought it for) and be happy or I'll have to introduce you to my best friend Quitcher....... Quitcher Bitchin

[crash54]

I had a few issues in the original 400 round period, but Terra took care of my XCR as well.
I sent the upper back, it was returned to me and since then, it has performed pretty much flawlessly.

Any glitches have been pilot error.

It now has about 800 rounds through it, and I am actually running it on gas setting 1.
It still chucks the cases a distance, but oh well.

I have taken two combat qualification courses with it, and passed both at 100%.
It goes to work with me everyday, in a case, in the back of the patrol vehicle.

I want to purchase a suppressor next, but have to build up the fund again for that.
And also have to examine which one to purchase which would work the best.

I would not hesitate to buy another XCR.

[MickeyC]

yet they are constantly recalled,so your "willing to accept a DVD player but not a rifle" really makes no sense.

Well that's the point.  Cars do get recalled because there is a safety issue. DVD players don't.  Where do you think guns should lie on that spectrum?

Anyhow guys, thanks for the responses.  Don't get too caught up in my bringing the rifle to a class.  I knew I was taking a chance not having fired *all* 400 break-in rounds.  Hence the back-up or should I say, primary rifle.  I probably would have been just as frustrated with the rifle during a full break-in since my version seems to be a jam-o-matic.

I probably have 300+ through the XCR now, and it still has problems.  I like the platform, I don't like how the company has brought the product to market.

Yes they do, sometimes, Ruger recalled SR9 pistols for a reworked trigger.