Current Developments

[kolob]

11 June 2008 Update on Progress.


Dear Customers:

I just want to let you all know how much your support means to us.  We just want you to know that we've been doing lots of R&D on new accessories, products, and adding to our own manufacturing ability.  Here's what's going on.

PDW XCR
We are making great progress in being able to offer a PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) version of the XCR.   It would be able to have a very short barrel (10"), the upper receiver, gas tube, and operating rod would also be shorter.   Assuming one has registered his lower as an SBR, one could add these parts to an existing XCR receiver.  All other parts are the same.

Match Trigger
We have designed a "Match" two stage trigger which should have a 2-4 lbs. first stage and a slightly heavier second stage.  It works differently than the current trigger system.   Our goal has been to make the trigger very light yet completely safe.  Prototype parts will be done in three weeks.  If these parts test out as planned, we'll get them into production.

This took a lot longer than anticipated.  We finally finished the design to perfection.  We have a 3.5 lb pull.  It's two-stage. We can make a one stage out of this mechanism.  We and our beta testers like it a lot.   We've ordered the parts from our vendors.  We'll post when they are ready.  They are drop in.  No modification to the rifle is necessary.

Caliber Conversions/Barrels

The following calibers are complete and being fabricated right now.  5.56, 6.8, 6.5, and 7.62x39mm.  The 5.56 and 6.8 are shipping.  The 6.5 will ship withing the next 3 weeks.  The 7.62x39mm are being fabricated right now and should ship in February.  Hopefully, the release of the high capacity magazines will coincide with the release.

Getting good barrels in a reasonable time has been our biggest problem.  We have just expanded our plant so that we can turn our own barrels next month.  This will result in quicker turn around and allow us to offer just about any barrel length and contour you guys want.   If you want a special twist, we can do that also, but expect to pay a little more.

The 7.62x39mm kits are finalized and will begin shipping June 19, 2008.  We are supposed to be receiving the 30 round magazines any day now.


New Stock

Being very unimpressed with current buttstock offerings by ourselves and others, we are working on a new, innovative buttstock with lots of features.   We will make it easier to sling it ambidextrously.  It will be adjustable for length and will fold neatly against the side of the rifle.  We are working to incorporate an adjustable cheek piece.   Please email your comments to zdf@robarm.com.  We are working on this right now and want to complete it as soon as possible.

We are almost finished with what we consider to be the perfect stock design for the perfect rifle.   We still have a little ways to go but we're moving fast now that we've figured it out.  The stock folds, collapses, and has the adjustable cheek piece.  We may also make a fixed stock or entry level stock that does not fold or collapse.  This stock would work in states where we cannot sell the folding or collapsible stocks.


Sights

We may also work on our own front and rear sights.  Please convey your wishes.  The idea is to have a front sight (adjustable for windage and elevation) which can be zeroed for each barrel.  This way each barrel for each caliber can be zeroed.  When it's taken off the rifle and put on again, it will remain zeroed.   It would fold down against the top of the picatinny rail of the receiver.  If you have any ideas or comments, we'd like to hear them. 

This is the only area where we haven't spent any time yet.

We're also working on the .308

If there's something you want, please let us know.  zdf@robarm.com  I will personally read your messages.

Sincerely,

Alex J. Robinson
Manager
Robinson Armament Co.

[aziator]

Thanks for the update Alex, nice to know whats going on with future plans.

[SWEEP]

Thanks for the info it makes it easy to start putting monies aside if ya know somethings in the works such as the pdw upper I promised the wife i wouldn't buy any more guns till next year , didn't say any thin about parts thou 

[gunner69]

That's all good news Alex, thanks for the update.  I myself would like to be able to use a drop-in AR trigger pack.  There are several already on the market that come to mind.  Looking forward to the new stock, not that I don't like the old folder.  Currently,  it's a great pain-in-the-ass to install a sling.   

[Martens]

Looking forward to the stock and am interested in the trigger.  I actually shoot the current trigger real well, but I've liked every upgrade so far.

[Aussie Arms]

Alex,

Thanks for the update.  A little information goes a long way to help with future plans. 

Any news on the XCR-M in .308??  How is that coming along?

Thanks again,

Roy

[magikbullet]

great news!  I look forward to the updates.

a dovetailed fully adjustable front sight would be great, in that I wouldn't be required to get a new optic to swap with each conversion.

as far as the caliber conversions, after the 308 are there any plans for .22, pistol calibers, or 5.45x39? 

[XCRmonger]

Any news on the XCR-M in .308??  How is that coming along?

Thanks again,

Roy

Kill the spy! 



 

[tzoid]

  Alex

   I really appreciate the updates and I will remain one of your biggest fans.

       
       Thank you !

[UDT]

   for the update.

[MickeyC]

Good to see the adjustable sight on the barrel. It will enhance the EXR reputation going forward.

Improved stock is also a nice idea as is the trigger. How come the switch from single stage to two stage? When I originally contacted you guys I was told the new lighter mach trigger would be single stage.

[wristlock]

I am confused on the front sight.
Here is what I infered:
It is a folding front sight that attaches to the picatinny rail, not the barrel.
When barrels are switched you click X up/down and Y Left/right and your irons are now sighted in.

I would hate to pay ~$150 per barrel.

This design would cross over to the AR platforms.

[Aussie Arms]

Terra,

Careful, I'm keeping my eye on you!   

[kolob]

PDW

Tests of the shorter gas system needed for the PDW went very well.  We're going ahead to build some over the next few weeks. 

7.62x39mm/Full-Auto

Even though we cannot sell many of you the 7.62x39mm in full-auto we still test everything in full-auto before we offer it in semi-auto.  We just finished testing the 7.62x39mm in full-auto.  The rifle is simply amazing.  I shot it with a 16" barrel with NO muzzle brake or flash hider.  The thing was extremely controllable.   It was much more controllable than an AK-47 shooting the same ammo.  We shot 500 rounds almost as fast as we could load. 

Then we changed it to 5.56 and it was like shooting a water pistol.   We've been making little refinements on the full-auto model over the past year to make sure it is the most smooth shooting full-auto available.

I'm very sure you guys are going to like the 7.62x39mm conversion.  You can definitely tell you're shooting something different from 5.56 but it is very controllable and accurate.

We're waiting on a couple parts so we should be able to begin shipping next month.  Hopefully, C-Products will finally have their magazine ready.

New Stock

This is our top R&D priority right now.  We'll get several of you some pics or solid models to review shortly.   

XCR-M .308

This is our top priority this year.  We were going to jump it head of all the caliber conversion business.  We didn't because we committed to our current XCR-L 5.56 customers to have the caliber conversions and some neat accessories for the XCR-L out before we got the XCR-M going.

Much of the R&D we've done on triggers, testing, etc. has been done so that we can get the XCR-M done more quickly and with less problems.  Let's just say that if I were looking for a good .308 this year, I'd wait a little while for the XCR-M.

Sights

Our front Sights will go on the Gas Block NOT on the Rail.  The sights will fold down on top of the rail so that the sight is supported and won't be damaged when not in use.  You will not have to buy another barrel or gas block.  The sights will be made to fit on the dovetail of your current gas block.   The sights will be done in conjunction with the XCR-M .308.


Other Cals.

5.45x39mm is not too hard but does require a different extractor and bolt.  It's not high on the radar right now.  The .22 LR is but it will be later this year.  I think the .308 is more important.

Sincerely,

Alex

[Bravo]

Wonderful news Alex!

Now please tell me that you'll have a -M prototype at SHOT for us to check out (in your room, I understand).

Or at least a stock prototype. I'll bring the tubular stock I reworked, since I never could convince the girlfriend to work up digital pics for you...... just isn't high on her priority list it would seem (even so, she's far more reliable than the ex-wife ever thought of being!).

I'm looking QUITE forward to the release of the 308, and asking some good questions at SHOT!

Last thing - will the front sights be available in different heights? The ones designed to be mounted on the rail of an AR are too high for my taste. Something lower would be most excellent.

[Jbpark55]

That's great news Alex. I can't wait for the XCR-M 308. The front sight does interest me. But I think I would prefer a fixed as opposed to a folding sight. How about preliminary drawings or pictures?

Keep up the great work.  Thanks!!!

[gunner69]

I think EVERYBODY is excited about an XCR in .308,  I know I am.  I would really like to see a .260 Rem. barrel for it.  It would be able to utilize the same magazine too.   

[magikbullet]

good to hear alex 

[ny32182]

Thanks for the update...

I agree that having the sights be lower than AR sights would be good.  AR sights are nice/workable, but I agree they are higher than ideal.

[sterling99]

With all the new things coming out for the XCR why buy anything else?

Eagerly Awaiting the PDW!

[Aussie Arms]

If the new RobArms stock it detachable, the PDW upper could be used on the current lower!  It could still be used with the collapsing and collapsing and folding stock.  I look forward to seeing the finished product.

I would still like to see the XCR-M in .308 and .260 take priority over the PDW.

 

[Tex570]

Probably a silly question, will the XCR-M take M-14/M1A mags?

[Rain Away]

I Highly doubt it. The XCR-M will more then likely tak the same mags as an AR 10 or SR-25 or whatever...

[Bravo]

Earlier, Alex said the DPMS / AR10 mags.

I think he made a good decision.

My guess is, since CProducts is making M14 mags, they'll be churning out AR10 mags shortly. After all, an AR10 mag is nothing but a butchered M14 mag, eh?

[Aussie Arms]

Yes it's true,

Alex confirmed to me that the XCR-M will in fact take the   DPMS., LR-308 Magazines.  A few people (including me) have been buying these mags in anticipation of the XCR-M (and are listed in my ad in the trading post).

Buy the way, how do you like my version of the XCR-L  PDW:


Just a little something I threw together!   Enjoy

[gr8santini]

Time to start saving for the XCR-M and to get some .308 reloading dies. 

[Jbpark55]

Hey Aussie, nice PDW. Just make that in 762x39 or 308 (762NATO) & that would be a winner.

As for mags for the XCR-M. I like G3 mags the best. They are the closest thing to a AK mag. But I guess I can live with AR10 mags.

[kolob]

Here's an update on the following:

7.62x39mm Rifle & Conversion Kits

We're still waiting for our barrel blanks.  They're late but should be here shortly.  Progress is being made toward the production of the 7.62x39mm magazine.  The first which was pictured on a 7.62x39mm XCR had a couple flaws.  We should be testing a finished mage. one this week.   In doing full-auto testing, the XCR 7.62x39mm is the most controllable 7.62x39mm I've ever shot.

6.5

The 6.5 should ship this month.   We're waiting for barrels to come back from chrome plating.

Match Trigger

There's a separate post on this.  It's simply awesome.  Our skeptical test group loves it.

New Stock

The Design for a folding collapsing stock is being finalized.  We have looked at the best that's being offered and what we have is better than anything on we've seen anywhere.   For competitive reasons, we cannot show it quite yet.

.308 Rifle

This will be our full focus after Mar. 15.  We'll post images soon.  Just to mess with your minds, I'm going to post some pictures of our original design with the G3 magazine. The rifle will change quite a bit, but it's something to get your juices going on.

 


Don't get too attached to this. There will quite a few differences.  The stock also.  Also the way the barrel and gas tube attach are different. 
This was fully desiged quite a while ago.  It doesn't have the latest features.  Notice the grip safety.  We actually made some of these.  The upper receiver is also longer. 

Any feedback would be great. Send it to zdf@robarm.com

The neat thing is the .308 is estimated to be around 8.2 lbs.

Of course the new stock and trigger would be part of this rifle.  The new stock is much cooler looking.

I look forward to hearing from you.

[gunner69]

Great update Alex.  Wish you had stayed with the G3 mags for the .308.  Of course me having about 20 G3 mags has nothing to do with it.   

[gr8santini]

I can't wait for the .308!!!

[Rain Away]

The .308 is beutiful even as a 3D rendering... I cant wait to see the new Stock, do you have a price estamate for it yet???
Thanks for the update!!!

[gr8santini]

I've spent a good part of today day dreaming about how I'm going to configure my XCR 308 when they come out!

[Rain Away]

I'll put duck tape, and Pepsi on mine!!!

[kolob]

The .308 is beutiful even as a 3D rendering... I cant wait to see the new Stock, do you have a price estamate for it yet???
Thanks for the update!!!

The stocks will not be horribly expensive.   I'll make sure there's a special discount for those already with XCRs.  How's that sound?   Personally, I cannot stand any of the AR-15 stocks. They're just too darn fat and most are butt ugly. Whenever I see one on my rifles, I want to puke.  But they've been a necessary evil.

Alex J. Robinson
Manager

[kolob]

Great update Alex.  Wish you had stayed with the G3 mags for the .308.  Of course me having about 20 G3 mags has nothing to do with it.   

If there was enough demand, we could make receivers to take the G3 magazines.  They have stops in places I don't like which compromises the magazine well.  We'll see what we can do.

Alex Robinson
Manager
Robinson Armament Co.

[Jbpark55]

That sounds great, glad for the updates. and yeah put me down for a G3 receiver also.   

[gunner69]

Damn that gives me a woody.....

[aziator]

Thanks for the updates Alex, looking forward to all the new stuff.

[Martens]

I actually really love the look of the fixed stock.  If the new stock looks as good and folds/adjusts you should have a winner.  I can't wait to get one.

If you can produce the rear sight that is on the .308 I think you'll make a lot of people happy as well.

I am very happy with DPMS/SR25 mags but then I have them already.  Is there any way to make the .308 lower accept both mags?  They are both straigh insertion.  That would be about ideal if you ask me.

I am assuming the .308 model will have an adjustable gas system as well?

Keep up the great work.

[kolob]

I actually really love the look of the fixed stock.  If the new stock looks as good and folds/adjusts you should have a winner.  I can't wait to get one.

If you can produce the rear sight that is on the .308 I think you'll make a lot of people happy as well.

I am very happy with DPMS/SR25 mags but then I have them already.  Is there any way to make the .308 lower accept both mags?  They are both straight insertion.  That would be about ideal if you ask me.

I am assuming the .308 model will have an adjustable gas system as well?

Keep up the great work.

The .308 will be almost identical to the 5.56 except it will have the new trigger system.  It will of course use the same 5 position gas system. The gas block will be closer to the end of the receiver.   The stock will look elegant but will be very functional.  The charging handle will be exactly the same but a little longer.

As for the sights you see on the rifle, these were originally designed for the XCR over 4 years ago.  We have a much better idea now of what we want now.  I don't want to spoil the fun but just get input.   I have the feeling the .308 is going to be a very big hit.  Here's why:

Unlike the FAL, there's no stupid top cover.
Unlike the AR-10 and the like, this has very good ergonomics, just like the XCR-L
It's very light.  It is the same width as the current XCR so the handguards feel the same.
Recoil should be lighter than all the others also.

I'm also going to add other surprises.

[gunner69]

Alex,  got a check ready and I am waiting.........

[aziator]

Again, I will probably need 3...

[Tinman]

ding dang it!!! how the hell am i supposed to save any money when you keep coming up with all these neat new toys for us to buy.

[i303]

I'll echo for the G3 mag receiver.  A big differnce when you can pick them up for $1 a piece and they are good magazines.

Put me down for one Alex.  I'd have no problem getting rid of my PTR-91 KP in exchange for a XCR-M if that was the case.

[ny32182]

I'd certainly consider selling one of my FALs to acquire one.

[Jack-O]

any word on the price range for these?  is it going to be more, less or about the same as a -L?

[kolob]

any word on the price range for these?  is it going to be more, less or about the same as a -L?

The price will be one or two hundred more than 5.56.  So, that won't be so bad.

Alex

[everalm]

"Wipes drool from corner of mouth"

Damn, now I can't make my mind up between the 6.5 conversion kit or the XCR-M.

And at 8.4 pounds waaay lighter than my old L1A1 at 9lb 9oz unloaded. This puppy should top out at about 9lb 5oz with a steel mag of 20 rounds.

Oh well, if I want that heavy feeling I'll scrounge up an old SUIT sight.......

[V]

I'm also going to add other surprises.
[/quote]
I hope they are good surprises. 

 This year?

I can't imagine how much work it is to develop a new weapons system as you have.
I think it would be great to see the inner workings of Robinson Arms. Maybe some factory
pics?

[MickeyC]

Hey the SUIT was heavy but it was good!

[magikbullet]

:drool:

I'd also like to see a g3/hk91 mag receiver since I have about 50 of them...but bolt hold open is certainly a consideration.

I really can't see this baby not kicking my beloved ptr91 into safe queen status   

[VariableBinary]

I want that .308...bad.

Alex, please be sure to get the .308 model to the Utah dealers before anywhere else in the country. I am freaking impressed. That is seriously hot shizz

[tacweapon]

Any info on the C-Mag for the 7.62 x 39 ? What is the estimated ship date for them and the 7.62 x 39 conversion kit ? Is the 7.62 x 39 kit going to be the same price as the other kits ? Alex I would really be interested in more info in the .22LR Kit what is the status of this ?

[VariableBinary]

Well the feedback on M4C (one of the better forums out there), is keep true mil-spec rails on the XCR-M, and use SR25 pattern mags.

Alex, when you have time, take a gander here: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13797

[pattenmt]

I just got an email from C Products about when  the new 7.62x39 mags will be available .
 Short answer but makes me very happy

  Two weeks , that means first week of may

 

[killswitch1982]

Well looks like I'll have a another .308 WIN rifle to compliment my M1A setup and XCR. Good on ya Robarms!

[MrSmitty]

I hope these XCR-M's are ready to ship by this time next summer.  I want one to hunt with in the fall of 09.

[MrSmitty]

Anyone know what barrel length these going to be? 16" 18.5" 20"?

[piusmilitis]

any news on the stock?  how much will the new stock add to the cost of the XCR?

[XCRmonger]

Either the same or cheaper.  The point of the new stock was the aluminum stocks cost quite a bit to make and didn't offer any good features.

[dont_tread_on_me]

    Terra,Any idea on the price of the new stock to existing customers,and any further idea about possible release a date?

[XCRmonger]

We won't have a price, not until we figure out how much everything will cost us.

[Bravo]

And today is the first of August.

I've got it marked down on my calendar - from back around February - "Call Robarm about XCR-M"

Any update on these?

I'd really like to have mine in hand before president ospama is elected......

[piusmilitis]

I'd really like to have mine in hand before president ospama is elected......

Um....  I didn't hear a thing.... 

[Phalanx]

We were talking about how it looks like a mixture of a 91 and an FAL and incorparates the best of the two.
G3 mags are a great compromise , they are plentiful and cheap , and the M14 mag would be a good choice also except they have gotten so expensive.
I see the M96 gas block and Barrel peeking out of it also.

[dont_tread_on_me]

    I like the idea of g3 mags as well as long as they are drop free.I'm not sure if that possible from the engineering side.What I do know is that changing mags on my ptr sucks,and if the xcr medium were to have this problem,there would no end to the criticism.Thats one thing that makes the xcr great,is the superb ergonomics.It's a shitty trade-off because g3 mags are plentiful and cheap,but I would hate to see a good plateform fall short because of incompatible magazines
    Another possible issue with them is the bolt hold open.If it can be made to work ,that's great but if not I wouldn't want it.Neither my AK or the PTR has it,I love both weapons,but it is not the way I would prefere them to be given a choice.Everyone wants cheap mags,myself included but not at the cost of inferior design/ergonomics.Hopefully these things won't be an issue but it's just some observations I feel have merit.

[MrSmitty]

DPMS LAR-308 mags are really expensive in Canada. 79.95 a piece but I will pay it if the mag functions well probably buy 10.  I don't know how plentiful they are but I know of one place I can order them.  I like the features current XCR-L and hope the features continue with the XCR-M.

[itstock]

I'm sure it's getting old, but I got some new optics and I'm REALLY waiting on that new stock to pick some rings......  Should I hold out for a couple months, or should I buy a CTR with a riser?    I don't need an exact time line, but a "it's still a design on paper" or "it's being tested and fitted with the xcr" would be nice to know.

[Warhawk1982]

Yeah, I'd like some details on the new stock. Is it gonna be something like the one on the Magpul Masada? That'd be awsome.

[44blues]

I'm sure it's getting old, but I got some new optics and I'm REALLY waiting on that new stock to pick some rings......  Should I hold out for a couple months, or should I buy a CTR with a riser?    I don't need an exact time line, but a "it's still a design on paper" or "it's being tested and fitted with the xcr" would be nice to know.

Good luck on that riser for the CTR...I've been waiting months for mine!

[itstock]

I'm sure it's getting old, but I got some new optics and I'm REALLY waiting on that new stock to pick some rings......  Should I hold out for a couple months, or should I buy a CTR with a riser?    I don't need an exact time line, but a "it's still a design on paper" or "it's being tested and fitted with the xcr" would be nice to know.

Good luck on that riser for the CTR...I've been waiting months for mine!

 :'(   Well, if I order now, it might be here before the stock.  All I know is that I'd really like to have either the riser, or better, a new xcr stock.

Any word on the "new" XCR stock?  Ferris? Ferris? 

[TaylorMP]

So, if I ordered an XCR early next week, would it have the new trigger?  I haven't seen anything new about the trigger in the past couple weeks or so on the forum.

[piusmilitis]

yes how long until one would be able to order the XCR with the new stock?

[Devil doc]

Can we get some pic's........... at least an idea? I'd like to see the PDW. I will buy an upper seeing I already have an SBR what's another letter to the ATF? I wouldn't be mad if you just pm'd me them.

[Sean K.]

Any word on changing your 6.8 bbl specs to 1:11 or 1:12 twist with 3-4 groove rifling?  The 1:10 is the only thing holding me back from getting the conversion.

Thanks,
Sean

[Jack-O]

that whole twist rate thing in the 6.8 is overblown IMHO.  I wouldn't hold your breath, they have too many other irons in the fire and it would take them at least 2 months to get them if they did decide to change.

they are already using the correct chamber, and that will assure safe shooting with the good loads anyway.

if you dont beleive me then send me some of those super duper loads, and I'll run them thru my rig and show you the cases so you can decide for yourself.

[aziator]

Funny, I was looking at Hornadys site yesterday and saw this

 
6.8MM SPC 110 BTHP TAP®
Intended for use in and works optimally in a 1-10" twist barrel.

[Sean K.]

that whole twist rate thing in the 6.8 is overblown IMHO.  I wouldn't hold your breath, they have too many other irons in the fire and it would take them at least 2 months to get them if they did decide to change.

they are already using the correct chamber, and that will assure safe shooting with the good loads anyway.

if you dont beleive me then send me some of those super duper loads, and I'll run them thru my rig and show you the cases so you can decide for yourself.

I am in no way saying you are not right....however, either constructor or Tim_W from the 6-8 forum has been in contact with RA and talked specifically about offering a more optimized twist and groove (and possibly even DMR chamber) to get the most out of the available (and future) 6.8 offerings.

I currently have a 1:10 twist 6.8 SBR....it functions fine, but if I'm spending the coin, I'd like to get the best set up I can.

I respectfully disagree that the twist, groove and chamber specs are overblown.  If you'll read up on the work of the guys on 6-8 forums, you'll see that these changes make marked improvements in the velocities you can achieve (SAFELY) in the 6.8 platform.  To me, that's worth it.

However, I do understand that RA has a lot of irons in the fire and it's not really likely that there will be a change.  I only asked b/c one of the guys at 6-8 forums was talking about having the conversation with RA.

Sean

[Jack-O]

I seriously will shoot some of those in my gun for you to test them.  Shoot I dont care, and I kinda want to find out for myself frankly.

If you want to know if they have overpressure or whatever then send me some rounds and I'll send you back the brass with a complete range report.

My barrel and gun are only about 1 month old anyway, so you know they have the most current RA specs.

lets get this shit on record.

[Sean K.]

I seriously will shoot some of those in my gun for you to test them.  Shoot I dont care, and I kinda want to find out for myself frankly.

If you want to know if they have overpressure or whatever then send me some rounds and I'll send you back the brass with a complete range report.

My barrel and gun are only about 1 month old anyway, so you know they have the most current RA specs.

lets get this shit on record.

Oh, don't misunderstand me....I'm not saying that SPC II and 1:10 twist will be overpressure.  I'm saying that from what the "experts" on the 6-8 forum are getting, the 1:11 or 1:12 will allow you to achieve higher velocities at lower pressures than 1:10.


If you're interested, here's a link to a thread on ARF.com about it: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=408438

One of the more interesting quotes from the above thread is one by DocGKR (an authority on 6.8 SPC)....

"For civilian hunting, a 55K pressure is probably OK; for military use, 50-52K is a better way to go. Here is what Cris Murray, a designer of 6.8 mm and 7x46 mm, wrote recently about the pressures in the two cartridges he has helped birth:


Pressures must be kept below 52K or during a fight your rifle will be usless after the second magazine. True, during slow fire you can push the pressures up, the Army's long range 5.56 match load is a 90 gr projectile over 60K, but its slow fire-single loaded for 1000yd matches only. The old 1000yd, 180 gr 7.62 match load would literally melt down a M14 if you could've loaded them in a magazine and shot them for rapid fire. This is the one reason I restarted worked on the 7x46UAC, because it allows excellent ballistics without 52K+ pressures that would render it usless in a real fight. I've got factory made 7x46mm brass from Privi Partizan. Their brass is made straight from long 7.62x39 blank cartridge case they make and has the nice thick Russian rim, I want. Hopefully I'll be able to finish the pressure and powder tests this time, I'm trying to keep the speed at 2650 fps with a 130 gr projectile with pressure below 50K; all this out of a 16.5in barrel. The last tests were good, but I need to document them with telemetry."

What this may mean is that the higher twist rates have higher (but still safe for hunting/target shooting) pressures, but may not work that well in a SHTF or military application rifle.  The lower the pressure, the more reliable the rifle will be over the long haul, especially if fired repeatedly in very fast succession.


Also, if you haven't been to www.68forums.com , definitely check it out.  All the cutting edge 6-8 stuff is going on there.

Again, this is just my opinion.  It's certainly not something I am any sort of expert on....it's just what I've researched from people who do know a thing or two about getting the most performance from the 6.8 round.

Feel free to disagree and educate me on what I've gotten wrong.  I'm here to learn if you're willing to teach.

Sean

[Sean K.]

Funny, I was looking at Hornadys site yesterday and saw this

 
6.8MM SPC 110 BTHP TAP®
Intended for use in and works optimally in a 1-10" twist barrel.

Hornady makes great ammo....but most folks seem to regard the current SSA 6.8 ammo as superior to Hornady (this is in no way meant to be a slight against Hornady....they make quality stuff).

I do however wonder if Hornady actually tried a 1:11 or 1:12 twist bbl.   The ad doesn't say anything about trying other twist rates (though it is implied by the mention of a specific twist) and sometimes what an advertisement doesn't say is more important than what it does.

My admittedly limited understanding is that the 1:9.5 and 1:10 twists were more readily available for .277 bullets made for the .270.   The 1:11 was what was called for orginally in the 6.8 SPC design (along with a 4 groove bbl)....but perhaps I am not recalling that correctly.  Feel free to correct me on that.

Thanks,
Sean

[werra]

Funny, I was looking at Hornadys site yesterday and saw this

 
6.8MM SPC 110 BTHP TAP®
Intended for use in and works optimally in a 1-10" twist barrel.

Hornady makes great ammo....but most folks seem to regard the current SSA 6.8 ammo as superior to Hornady (this is in no way meant to be a slight against Hornady....they make quality stuff).

I do however wonder if Hornady actually tried a 1:11 or 1:12 twist bbl.   The ad doesn't say anything about trying other twist rates (though it is implied by the mention of a specific twist) and sometimes what an advertisement doesn't say is more important than what it does.

My admittedly limited understanding is that the 1:9.5 and 1:10 twists were more readily available for .277 bullets made for the .270.   The 1:11 was what was called for orginally in the 6.8 SPC design (along with a 4 groove bbl)....but perhaps I am not recalling that correctly.  Feel free to correct me on that.

Thanks,
Sean

I believe you are correct based on the 6.8 testing I have read about. SSA did a lot of testing and there are some extensive tests being reported on over at 68forums.com. Interesting stuff! 1:10 SPCII, 4 groove is great....1:11 or 1:12 is a even better!

[aziator]

i would venture to say that SSA is THE authority when it comes to making 6.8SPC.  Hornady makes a pretty good round though.  I would wager that you are correct, they probably designed the round around a 1:10 and never really worked it over with the newer tech barrrels.

[rich52us]

It's a new year!  How about a status update from Robinson.  I'd especailly like to know about the next cal. conversion status.  Thanks.

[DSM]

It's a new year!  How about a status update from Robinson.  I'd especailly like to know about the next cal. conversion status.  Thanks.

I reckon we might be hearing something soon.  The last official word we got was the post-election apocolypse stuff.  I wonder how they're sitting on backorders?

[Arc]

Cooooooooome on 5.45!!!!

[rich52us]

Cooooooooome on 5.45!!!!

That would work for me too.............or 9MM.

[SINKER]

Thanks Alex,

I haven't spoken to you for a while, ever since you ask me to direct most things to Terra, she has been a VERY GOOD addition to Our Family.

It really makes me feel good and proud as well, to see and hear of all the new things that Robinson Arms will be able to offer the consumer and the Defense/LE, etc. community as well.

I am anxious to see what Our new stock will look and feel like.  I am still very happy with Our original folding, padded stock that I have used these years.  I love it!  I can see how something that works like a telescope, still folds and is padded and more comfortable.  Go Ahead, tempt me......llol. OR I could be a Beta tester for you, I would be reasonable with my retainer......llol!!

I am somewhat disappointed that I went on and got one of Our new 7.62X39 conversion kits.  I would have originally liked and I ask you then about the 7.62X54/NATO caliber and you had no plans at that time...oh well, perhaps the economy will get better for us and I may consider purchasing an entirely new XCR! That wouldn't make you angry with me, would it? LLOL!

Hey, touch base sometime when you get the chance.  I am STILL VERY PROUD TO BE A PART OF THE ROBINSON ARMS FAMILY!

Best regards and thanks,
Chris
PS: Thanks again for hiring Terra, she is a VERY GREAT ASSET TO ROBARMS!

Thanks for the update Alex, nice to know whats going on with future plans.

[dont_tread_on_me]

7.62X54/NATO caliber

   Dang that must be a new cartridge,I've never heard of it?
LOL...just bustin your chops!

[Jbpark55]

7.62X54/NATO caliber

   Dang that must be a new cartridge,I've never heard of it?
LOL...just bustin your chops!

He must have meant the 7.62x54R.

[mrob74dog]

mmm...chops...with applesauce

[killswitch1982]

I want .50 Beowulf. Uses the same mags and bolt as the 5.56mm, but might need a stronger recoil spring.

[Devil doc]

I want .50 Beowulf. Uses the same mags and bolt as the 5.56mm, but might need a stronger recoil spring.

And flip up iron sights in the shape of daisies the .50 Beowulf is about as practical as a marshmallow gun conversion only not as cool.

[tk]

Why?

tk

[Devil doc]

Why?

tk

For what a it has in range and performance over a semi auto 12 gauge, the shoty still has way more advantages like easy of obtaining rounds (shells) not to mention cost and it is way more versatile. So with that said let me ask you why, what is the advantage of that over other possible rounds like the 300 whisper (300-221 keep in mind the supersonic performance of the whisper is not for kids) or the 6.5 grendel, or 6x45 better yet a dedicated .22lr conversion. So why the beowulf through some numbers that would justify RA retooling and already overwelmed company for a truly off beat round?

[Rated21R]

any word on the price range for these?  is it going to be more, less or about the same as a -L?

The price will be one or two hundred more than 5.56.  So, that won't be so bad.

Alex

guess i should go ahead and get my money ready now.   

[tk]

Why?

tk

For what a it has in range and performance over a semi auto 12 gauge, the shoty still has way more advantages like easy of obtaining rounds (shells) not to mention cost and it is way more versatile. So with that said let me ask you why, what is the advantage of that over other possible rounds like the 300 whisper (300-221 keep in mind the supersonic performance of the whisper is not for kids) or the 6.5 grendel, or 6x45 better yet a dedicated .22lr conversion. So why the beowulf through some numbers that would justify RA retooling and already overwelmed company for a truly off beat round?

Well actually, you said it was impractical -- or as practical as a marshmallow gun -- but your post doesn't address what makes it so.  Would I buy one? No: No use for it. But the premise is interesting. And if I needed a gun for hunting boar in brush, that might look pretty good.

Personally, I'd rather have the .22 conversion.

tk

[Devil doc]

I believe I addressed the impractical portion with the price per round and that a 12 gauge is comparable for the desirable use for it, I also believe I said marshmallow conversion rather than gun. Slugs and buckshot would drop any pig like a wet rag.

[tk]

Yeah, I got that part. But the whole point of it is that it can be chambered in a assault rifle frame.  There's no 12-gauge conversion for the XCR, so I don't see the point of the comparison.


tk



 

[SheepDog]

Definitely a 22LR conversion! Matched with my 6.8 model it would be quite a versatile hunting firearm.

SheepDog 

[XCRFan]

RA has stated that they are looking at introducing a 5.45x39 conversion kit as soon as they are done with the XCR-M.  The XCR-M is the #1 priority right now after the new stock, which is complete just waiting on production bids.

[piusmilitis]

Sooooooooooo, what the heck is going on with this stock!?!?!?

[Vultite]

Sooooooooooo, what the heck is going on with this stock!?!?!?

+1

[stanc]

What stock?

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

[LurpyGeek]

They're ready to go, they just don't all have ponies painted on them yet.

[MickeyC]

Where is the icon for a flying pig?

[magikbullet]

how about that ambi mag release too?   

[DSM]

Where is the icon for a flying pig?

Y'all stop whining.  You don't understand how a firearm business works.


Sorry, figured I'd save VB the trouble.   


(yes, it's a joke)

[piusmilitis]

how about that ambi mag release too?   

hey hey lets not get crazy now!  One thing at a time, I've been waiting to see this stock ever since I discovered of the XCR. 

[MickeyC]

Some of us have been waiting over three years for some of these products like the XCR-M. compared to that the wait for the stock has been minimmal. Welcome to the RobArms waiting room! 

[Phoenixx6]

how about that ambi mag release too?   

Second the motion! 

[DSM]

With the more tight lipped attitude they have taken on this year I wonder if there will be anymore "updates" or "new developments" threads or postings anymore.  Their site is still a work in progress of course but not much in the way of news or anything going on there too.  It's not like we have to "clear" everything for them of course, though it's harder to gen up interest in retrofitting several thousand rifles now when it just shows up out of nowhere. 

[MickeyC]

All in all what Alex delivers is usually good quality and well designed. The close lipped development process is better as we don't have this painfull wait. The stock and the XCR-M are about the last of those items that were announced too early in the development cycle. When they are delivered they will be good, solid products.

Hopefully in future news will be released when designs are finalized and out for production. This way the gap between announcement and availability should be much shorter, less painfull and not seen as delayed by the user community. For example it would be nice if the stock were announced once a production bid was in and the pricing known. That way the wait for availability will be short but manageable.

Just my 

[Phoenixx6]

We're never going to hear about future developments ever again.

On the flip side, when they all of a sudden say "oh, and here's this if you'd like," those interested are going to FLIP the F-*% out.  And the endless waiting is removed from the picture at the same time. 

[Underground]

I hope it's soon, these flying monkeys are making my ass itch.   

[WatchoutforStobor]

Alex gave updates and made some announcements last year at Shot Show time. I bet he'll do the same for Shot Show 2010.

[MickeyC]

Hopefully those announcements will be stock and XCR-M availability.

[tboned]

huge FAIL to not have a massive push to make the stock available for Christmas, imho.

Its kinda sorta an important shopping season where folks spend money. Just sayin'.

[Dynamo55b]

Wow...

[Soap]

Regardless of whether they keep me updated or not. I love RA's products and will continue to buy them. If a design happens it happens. If not, oh well. I'd rather they made me wait 10 years for the best thing on the market than rush out a chromed turd just to appease the geardos. I love my AR, but for my money the XCR is the heat. I can work around it's perceived short comings because it's the warrior and not the tool that wins the fight.

[MickeyC]

I'd assume post Christmas or Tax season is the time to launch something new.

[tboned]

Disagree.....I don't think that strategically waiting to release a product until AFTER Christmas would be a compelling business model in most industries.

[bolster]

Not worth whining about.  The stock will be available when it's ready, no sooner. I hope people aren't thinking that it's being delayed on purpose.  Like posted above, it would make no sense.

[ny32182]

I doubt the season/Christmas/whatever will factor into the timing of the release of any new products.

Seems to me the black gun market in general, and RA's market in particular, is niche enough that those who want the stock (or whatever else) will want it regardless of the timing during the year.

[WatchoutforStobor]

I doubt the season/Christmas/whatever will factor into the timing of the release of any new products.

No, but I would hope to get some serious updates at Shot Show time.

[Sean K.]

Even with Troy stubbies....I'm still hoping for the new stock so I can get a good cheekweld. Good things come to those who wait though, right??

Sean

[DSM]

Seems like a self-help deal now.  If all we're doing is waiting for the next big thing then when we're all old and stricken we'll look back and wonder what the hell we did with our lives!  Stop waiting and enjoy what you have and put an order in for a new barrel with the new stock because you've done shot yours out!   

[Toth]

I was really hoping that 5.54x39 would have been much higher on the to-do list.
I fear that when they get to that project, the rounds will no longer be feasible anymore.

[Jack-O]

I'm wondering why you wouldnt stock up on the ammo while it's cheap?

you could always get a different gun later or sell it off at a profit.

[DSM]

5.45 may increase a little in price but I don't think it would totally disappear.  It's always been able to beat 5.56 (brass not steel cased) too so it should be a contender in the price game.  I'd follow Jack's advice; get a couple, three, four of those cheap crates and maybe a cheap SAR2 or some other -74 rifle to plink around with for the time being.

[Cid1911]

There are some decent bulgarian AK 74s built on NDS recievers floating around for under $450.00.

Hornady is making 5.45x39 now.

[Camp Cook]

I've never seen this ammo here in Canada so for me at this time there is absolutely no interest in it now something in 6mm would be awesome 6X45/6mmX6.8spc/6mmAR etc etc would be awesome combo for predator, deer hunting even black bear in a pinch...

[SheepDog]

I have plenty of firearms for many uses but I purchased my XCR in 6.8 for exactly the reason above. I could sell off most of what I own if need be and still be able to hunt and defend myself adequately.

SheepDog 

[Jack-O]

The tuned in person will be looking for the following calibers in the -L and -M

they may even be in this order

-5,45x39
-308
-7mm-08
-243
-22lr
-6.5g

[dont_tread_on_me]

The tuned in person will be looking for the following calibers in the -L and -M

they may even be in this order

-5,45x39
-308
-7mm-08
-243
-22lr
-6.5g

   I think you could throw the .260 Remington and .338 Federal on that list too.The great thing about conversion for the M at least in the two calibers I mentioned (as well as the 7mm-08),is that only a barrel change should be necessary,keeping down the cost of the conversion kits.The magazine may have to be modified slightly for the larger bullets,I'm not absolutely certain.
 

[PaulD]

Since I live in a ban state, I'd really like to see a new fixed stock option.  Something with an adjustable cheek weld would be nice.

Also, how about a .22LR conversion?

[piusmilitis]

Speaking of Stocks, has RA given up on the "new Stock". Its been like . . . years. 

[MickeyC]

It is like everything else. It will be released whenever Alex is ready to release it, not before. If you don't like the standard stock, then either wait or buy something else. ther is simply no other choice. It's like the XCR-M, that has been an even longer wait than the stock, but it will only be released when alexs decides to.

[Underground]

Since I live in a ban state, I'd really like to see a new fixed stock option.  Something with an adjustable cheek weld would be nice.

Also, how about a .22LR conversion?

It isn't the stock that makes it fold, there's a separate part that has the hinge in it.  Any stock you can mount at all is then a fixed stock without that.

But everyone has been looking forward to the new RA stock.  Far, far forward.   

[piusmilitis]

It is like everything else. It will be released whenever Alex is ready to release it, not before. If you don't like the standard stock, then either wait or buy something else. their is simply no other choice. It's like the XCR-M, that has been an even longer wait than the stock, but it will only be released when alexs decides to.

I have been.... there was a time when I had a nice little stash of "gun money" slated for an XCR. . . And I was waiting for the stock to come out which was going to be "very soon" . . .  Sigh....  I'm married now, no more gun stash. . . (oh but I'm rebuilding, so shhhhhhh).

[SheepDog]

It is like everything else. It will be released whenever Alex is ready to release it, not before. If you don't like the standard stock, then either wait or buy something else. their is simply no other choice. It's like the XCR-M, that has been an even longer wait than the stock, but it will only be released when alexs decides to.

I have been.... there was a time when I had a nice little stash of "gun money" slated for an XCR. . . And I was waiting for the stock to come out which was going to be "very soon" . . .  Sigh....  I'm married now, no more gun stash. . . (oh but I'm rebuilding, so shhhhhhh).

Ask for forgiveness, not permission. If she forgives you all is well. If she doesn't play with your XCR instead! Looks like a win-win to me!

SheepDog 

[TheTimCat]

Dang, I read this all the way to the end hoping for information on the 308 and the stock.

I am in the market for my first AR style rifle and I have narrowed it down to 2 or 3, one of which is the XCR.

Is the new 2 stage trigger available on the XCR-L?

[marrandy]

The new trigger has been standard on rifles built since last May.

Make sure you don't buy an  'old stock'  pre-May 2009 rifle from a dealer.

If you are looking for an SHTF rifle, get the 7.62x39 kit as well as that is another common round.

Also get the   'parts kit' - $75 dollars or so and if you want to be sure, get a spare 5.56 & 7.62x39 bolt.

http://xcrforum.com/index.php/topic,255.0.html

Terra will see you right as she is a princess.

[TheTimCat]

Great, I was first under the impression the enhanced trigger was an upgrade.

Yes, my intention with going with this rifle is to have the ultimate STHF.  I'll setup an ACOG for 5.56x45 and have irons ready for 7.62x39. Just a simple swap and go!

Yes, I saw that parts post. What are the more frequent parts to go bad? I could just order the kit + some extras of the more common problem peices.

I'll probably order it without a stock and get a Magpul later, I am still undecided as to which one at this moment.

The new trigger has been standard on rifles built since last May.

Make sure you don't buy an  'old stock'  pre-May 2009 rifle from a dealer.

If you are looking for an SHTF rifle, get the 7.62x39 kit as well as that is another common round.

Also get the   'parts kit' - $75 dollars or so and if you want to be sure, get a spare 5.56 & 7.62x39 bolt.

http://xcrforum.com/index.php/topic,255.0.html

Terra will see you right as she is a princess.

[DSM]

That parts kit is pretty good to start off with.  I'd recommend a couple extra ejector screws and lock washers, a spare pivot pin and clip, spare gas dial and most definitely a spare, complete bolt in addition to the kit. 

Now let me quantify my statement as one that hasn't seen any of the above parts fail in my XCR, but, for long term maintenance with minimal logistics those are the items I'd anticipate crapping the bed or just plain getting lost through continued hard use.  Build yourself a little maintenance kit that could fit in a small pouch.  Multi-tool, some type of screwdriver(s), spares, etc, etc.  It'll help you get organized and keep everything in one spot.  Also, you can pay attention to anything you've ever needed tool wise when you've been out shooting.

[jyatesmp]

New Stock

Being very unimpressed with current buttstock offerings by ourselves and others, we are working on a new, innovative buttstock with lots of features.   We will make it easier to sling it ambidextrously.  It will be adjustable for length and will fold neatly against the side of the rifle.  We are working to incorporate an adjustable cheek piece.   Please email your comments to zdf@robarm.com.  We are working on this right now and want to complete it as soon as possible.

We are almost finished with what we consider to be the perfect stock design for the perfect rifle.   We still have a little ways to go but we're moving fast now that we've figured it out.  The stock folds, collapses, and has the adjustable cheek piece.  We may also make a fixed stock or entry level stock that does not fold or collapse.  This stock would work in states where we cannot sell the folding or collapsible stocks.


Sights

We may also work on our own front and rear sights.  Please convey your wishes.  The idea is to have a front sight (adjustable for windage and elevation) which can be zeroed for each barrel.  This way each barrel for each caliber can be zeroed.  When it's taken off the rifle and put on again, it will remain zeroed.   It would fold down against the top of the picatinny rail of the receiver.  If you have any ideas or comments, we'd like to hear them. 




Any word, pic, price, release date on the stock and sights?  Or did i miss it (lots of pages to read)?

[aziator]

No pics, prices or dates for either of those items.  I think the stock is a higher priority over the sights.

[Nesrath]

Is RA ever going to make a folding front sight that attaches to the gas block? That would stay on the barrel and be zeroed to it?

[dont_tread_on_me]

  I still say the easiest simplest solution to this is to have a railed gasblock instead of a dovetail.That way you could attach any AR style sight you want and wouldn't have to wait for RA to do R&D for 3 years before they release it.......just sayin'.

[Underground]

  I still say the easiest simplest solution to this is to have a railed gasblock instead of a dovetail.That way you could attach any AR style sight you want and wouldn't have to wait for RA to do R&D for 3 years before they release it.......just sayin'.

I agree, if people are so hot for it just go with a rail.

Or make a rail section that attaches to the existing gas block and let everyone worry about their own sights.

[dont_tread_on_me]

Or make a rail section that attaches to the existing gas block and let everyone worry about their own sights.

  Agreed,either do a railed gasblock or make a short rail section that would fit the dovetail.