Laser effectiveness?

[stanc]

Would like to hear from anybody who has experience with laser aiming devices. For the laser(s) that you've used, what is the practical max range when shooting in bright sunlight? During darkness?

[Fast Eddie]

I have a Crimson Trace (grip laser) in a Kimber Ultra Carry II .45, and 2 Lasermax (guide rod) lasers on a Glock 23, and Glock 20.  At night the lasers can be seen significantly further than the guns will accurately shoot.  I can see the dot at probably 400 yards.  My neighborhood is fairly dark however, and ambient light is going to make a difference.  In bright daylight they are good for most practical pistol ranges, can be seen ok to 50 yards.  More powerful rifle lasers would of course go farther.  Pulsating laser not only saves batteries but catches your eye better. I've viewed them as mainly a night tool, but they could be useful in odd situations where you could shoot the gun off the hip or from a concealed location (under a desk or table).

[Ashraam]

I use Crimson Trace as well, on a M&P .40

I'd say Fast Eddie is pretty much right about the night time range being beyond the limit (Or at least MY limit) of the gun to shoot.

However, it's very subjective in daytime.

You said "bright sunlight". I've shot my M&P in sunlight that made the laser all but invisible at anything more than 8-10 feet. It's basically worthless at that point, since even a basic "flash picture" aim is going to be faster and more accurate than trying to spot a tiny, washed out dot of light.

Interestingly, under sunny conditions, the laser is easier to see if you're aiming at something light colored rather than a dark background. That may be subjective as well, but that's my experience.

[stanc]

Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately, I neglected to note that I'm interested in laser sights suitable for mounting on an XCR.

[comatzd]

Use your funds wisely and invest in one of the newer GREEN lasers.  The human eye sees green much clearer than red.  I have a module for my pistol and the XCR, both made by Beamshot.  You can easily see it at 15yds and if you know where is should be (by sight picture) you can use it at 25yds or so.  This is daytime in the South Texas sun.

[PDBreske]

I bought the cheapest green laser I could find (FireField, $60 from Sportsman's Guide) and it's very impressive at night. During the day, it depends on the target. White or light colored targets will reflect the laser and make it pretty easy to spot, but in bright noon sunlight (killer Florida sun) it washes out beyond about 15 yards unless you are also looking through the rifle sights and know what to look for. Forget trying to pick it out if you don't already know where it is. At any other time of day, the laser is easy to see and shoot at. The green is much easier to see than any red laser I've seen, but the green lasers are also more costly. The prices are coming down, though.

I don't know how long the $60 laser will last or how well it will retain its zero after firing a few hundred rounds, but I figured for $60 it's a throwaway.

On a rifle like the XCR, I think the best reason to mount a laser is intimidation. If you have a red or green dot on your zombie's chest, he might think twice before attempting to eat your brains.

Here's the FireField on my XCR. It's not the smallest laser, but it works and looks cool:

[stanc]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the info, although 15-yard visibility is disappointing. Was hoping for 100 yards, for shooting on local rifle ranges.

(I'm only concerned with recreational shooting, since it's very unlikely I'd ever use it for self defense.)

[MrChem]

I second the green laser on the XCR. I picked up a cheap NC Star for my XCR for about $50. It is good out to about 50 yards on a bright day at the range if you know where to look. I can see how it would make for great intimidation, especially at night.

[stanc]

That's better, but it still falls a good 50 yards short. :'(

Looks like I'll have to rethink this idea...

[Fast Eddie]

PDBRESKE,
What's that NSVFG (Not So Vertical Fore Grip) attached to? The laser? If so does it feel solid?

[gr8santini]

The range that I frequent has a bullet trap at 100 yards that's provides a fair amount of shade.  I can see my green laser in broad daylight at 100 yards provided the target isn't in direct sunlight.  fwiw

[PDBreske]

PDBRESKE,
What's that NSVFG (Not So Vertical Fore Grip) attached to? The laser? If so does it feel solid?

It's on a Daniel Defense 1'o'clock Offset Rail. It's designed to allow a small red dot sight to be mounted slightly off to the side so you can transition from magnified optics to the RDS without affecting your cheek weld, but it can be mounted upside down for other accessories. I had seen others use these in a similar manner and I have to say it looks weird but works great.

I've posted other pictures in the XCR Picture Thread in the Gallery.

[Fatty]

There are advantages and disadvantages to lasers in general and green/red variations.

Some advantages to the laser argument...

1) The laser "dot" or impact indicates where the bullet will impact (depending on which version, guide rod, external, adjustable, etc).  This allows the shooter to get an indication of clearing or aiming his fire with little or no sight picture required.  That means you can shoot the weapon from virtually any position (crouched behind a bed with the rifle sticking around the side, around a corner, between your legs, whatever you choose) and still be accurate.  More important than doing trick shots, is the fact that in high stress/sudden altercations, you can be more effective at aiming, firing and hitting your target (as opposed to looking down the sights with proper sight picture, acquiring your target and firing).

2) The laser creates much less of a "signature" in darkness.  Less need for "flashing" or "bursting" your flashlight to paint your intended target.  Basically the laser acts like a pointer, where it's at is where the bullet ends up. 

Some DISADVANTAGES to the laser argument....

1) Technology is invariably fallable.  Which means that murphy can always play a hand.  The minute you rely SOLELY on a laser, the batteries will be dead (you'll have forgotten to check them) and you'll have to revert back to the old school method of sight and shoot.

2) External lasers can be "fouled", bumped, moved off target.  I think with pistols this is more of an issue because of the smaller nature of those lasers, but unless you're using an internal laser, theres always a chance the zero could be bumped and fouled

Some thoughts on RED/Green

1) Green lasers are daylight capable because they put out (and consume) more energy.  That's why the batteries are almost always more (in series) and or/more voltage (3v vs. 1.6 or whatever the smaller ones are).  The batteries on a greenie don't last as long.

2) "Signature" on a greenie is more in dark/smoky conditions.  The red dot is difficult to pickup during daylight, but at night it's fine.  The greeie is daylight capable, but at night, even without "smoke" or dust, you can see the laser path and track it back to the source.  Even the smallest amount of dust/smoke and the laser sticks out like a sore thumb.

I have a lasermax uni and the one thing I DON'T like about it (other than the cost, greenies are more expensive) is that the switch is WAY too easy to activate.  That means that you'd better be sure when you put the weapon in a case, compartment or even set it down, that you don't accidentally activate the laser (which obviously will run down the batteries inadvertantly)....see the note about murphy above.