Scopes

[jawara da' X]

Ok I know just about nothing when it comes to scopes. I ordered an XCR in 5.56 and will get a 6.5 kit later. When I shoot 5.56 I'll use irons, but for 6.5 I think a scope would make more sense because of the range of a 6.5 round. Does anyone have any suggestions on rugged scopes that will work will for the 6.5? I'm not a super long distance shoot type of guy so I don't think I need to seeing out past 800 yrds.

[tacweapon]

If you could provide a price range and what type of accuracy you expect I am sure someone could help you out. You just need to be a little more specific on your needs or wants

[jawara da' X]

Like I said I know diddly about scopes. I think about $700 is gonna be my price range, and I already know about ACOG's half my unit has them.

[jawara da' X]

Oh, and I think 1 inch groups @ 600 meters is good enough.

[dont_tread_on_me]

Oh, and I think 1 inch groups @ 600 meters is good enough.

  Damn I hope that was supposed to be funny.Anyway tell us what type of shooting you'll most likely be doing.Not all optics work well for all applications.If your doing mostly short range stuff a descent red dot or EOtech will work.If your doing mid range stuff a 1x4,1.5x5,or 2x6 power might be in order.It all depends on application.If you use quick detach mount you can swap back and forth between a red dot and a magnified optic for whatever you need it to do,with little or no change in zero.

[jawara da' X]

No I was serious. Like I said all I know about scopes is "ACOG". I'd like to be able to take down a deer,bear,elk, or moose at around 600 meters.

[DSM]

A Millett DMS1 or Burris 1x4 in a LaRue mount and you'll do very well for most things you'd do with an XCR.  For serious hunting though I'd get a 3x9, a little more versatility and better for dawn/dusk shots.  Burris, Leupold would be good, and they are at most local WalMarts too.  If you don't bang it around too much you could almost use just about any brand out there really.

Most rounds will still be very lethal at that range for certain but maybe some of the hunters around here can chime in with better advice.  You can get a hit, sure, but will it be in a sportsmanlike manner.

[Bravo]

Oh, and I think 1 inch groups @ 600 meters is good enough.

My spotters rifle (some folks call 'em a designated marskman rifle) puts 'em all in 1" at 300 yards.

There's a bunch of difference between 1" at 300 yards and 1" at 660 yards.

Think an XCR will do that? HA! DOUBLE HA!

[jawara da' X]

I really don't have any hunting experience and in my eyes, shooting an animal from 5 football fields away is odd........ thats just my opinion. One of the things I like about the XCR is that it seems to be a "do all" rifle. 5.56 is good for home defense,plinking and varmints and 6.5 is good for big game at medium range. How can you loose?

[magikbullet]

best comedy this forum has seen in a long time  

we'll get you straightened up though  

[jawara da' X]

Well, show me the way.

[dont_tread_on_me]

My spotters rifle (some folks call 'em a designated marskman rifle) puts 'em all in 1" at 300 yards.

There's a bunch of difference between 1" at 300 yards and 1" at 660 yards.

Think an XCR will do that? HA! DOUBLE HA!

 Bravo,is pretty spot on,as usual.One inch groups at 600 yards ain't a rifle it's a laserbeam.A rifle that will print a 1 inch groups at 600 yards is less than .25 M.O.A.(minute of angle) capable,which is exceptional=serious weapon,that equals serious money.

Insert Quote
I really don't have any hunting experience and in my eyes, shooting an animal from 5 football fields away is odd........ thats just my opinion. One of the things I like about the XCR is that it seems to be a "do all" rifle. 5.56 is good for home defense,plinking and varmints and 6.5 is good for big game at medium range. How can you loose?

  I wouldn't say it's odd,but it's sniping not hunting,that of course is my opinion.As a matter of fact,most people don't have the skill level and practise necessary to even attempt a shot on game much past 350 yards.I'm not including Varmints in that,but you still owe it to the game to make a clean kill.I personally think that includes shooting at running game,unless you are well practised,or are attempting to anchor a poor first shot.Big,hairy,clawed,or hoofed game also excluded of course if it's trying to stomp you to death or eat you!
 The 6.5 I would say is cartridge better suited to deer size big game,moose maybe with good shot placement and under 250 yard shots.Anything more and your stretching the capability of the round. 

[Bravo]

Long range groups:
A couple of my great good friends build rifles that shoot in the 1/10th MOA or slightly better. That's when everything comes together right - they won't guarantee work for less than 1/4 MOA typically.

That having been said, 1" at 660 yards is TOUGH even for them. I've got a nice target shot at 407 yards (laser ranged) with three in one hole, fourth about 1/8" off. Those are "top flight" boltguns - much MUCH finer than any M24 or M40 ever issued.

To expect anything even close from a gasgun is......... wishful thinking. My opinion.

I know a fellow that does 'extreme long range hunting'. We're talking about hitting elk - and killing with the first round - at close to 1100 yards. One of my advanced sniper school instructors killed a deer that was stupid enough to stand next to the 1000 yard steel once.

But nobody I know would try a long-range kill with a cartridge as small as the 6.5 Grendel.
Think of it this way......
The 6.5 Grendel is a short and small version of the 260. We'll call the 260 a "Grendel SSM" for the purpose of this argument. My sniper stick is chambered for the 6.5 Swede - but run up to modern rifle pressures. That's a longer version of the 260 - we can call the Swede a "Grendel Magnum".

My Swede is a laser beam that kills West Texas deer like an atom bomb - but that's a 140 grain Remington KoreLokt bullet at over 2900 fps. Best of luck getting anywhere near that performance from the Swede.

So take the ballistics, and the accuracy, all into account. When you get done, I'd say that the Grendel - if you've got a decent bullet - in the XCR should be a decent hunting rig to maybe 300 yards. I can't see going past 400 anyway, and that's with some real proficiency. I'd feel good with zapping a deer at 400 with that rig...... but only in specific circumstances. Picky on shots.

Money back guarantee: I guarantee that this information is worth everything you paid for it, or double your money back.

[marrandy]

Oh my god...I fell off my chair reading this thread.

It's the best laugh I've had in along time.

So much BS, I had to put on waders.

If only the people here actually knew ballistics, gun design, bullet/case/powder reloading and the US and world shooting records, they wouldn't be aiming so high (pun intended) and making such grandiose claims

[stanc]

Hunting w/ 6.5 Grendel, from short distance to long range, and in between.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=14

[Bravo]

Dunno if that was aimed at me or not......

If so, feel free to come shooting with me any time.

FWIW, my partner for the sniper school took first place in the Idaho state championship - that's just 1000 yards......

One of the two rifle builders that I spoke of is the Navy's NM team armorer. He builds almost all of my sticks.

The other guy - well, I'll see if I can't find the pic of that target. I know I've got it, it's just a matter of finding it.

[jon1371usmc]

Check out Leopold. They make some really good scopes. Also Bushnell Elite series. Both have really clear glass and have never failed me. I have tried the cheaper Bushnells, Nikons, and Simmons. But in the end you get what you pay for. I say go check them out at a local gun store (Bass Pro Shops, Cabelas) and get a feel for what you want. There are many different features out there, ie... magnification, reticle type, fogproof, waterproof, etc. Good Luck. Hope this helps a little. Maybe someone on here will give advice on the topic rather than trying to bust someone's chops for a statement made.  

[dont_tread_on_me]

If only the people here actually knew ballistics, gun design, bullet/case/powder reloading and the US and world shooting records, they wouldn't be aiming so high (pun intended) and making such grandiose claims

 Please clarify.

[Curt]

ROFLMAO!!! That is good stuff.

Hopefully he's just funning with us.

 Even with a rifle suited for the task, you would need some serious range time before being proficient at that kind of marksmanship.  I just never considered the XCR to be a long range hunting rig.

As an avid hunter who hunts wide open country I have to ask why you would think you will have to take that long of a shot?  I would work at developing some stalking skills. 

The deepest cover where I hunt is about ankle deep and I am able to get within 200-350 yds. I won't shoot if it's over 400. And that is laying down with a bi-pod and a .270. Not trying to preach ethics. There are guys out there capable of making ethical shots beyond that.

As for the question at hand, a Burris or Leupold tactical would probably be a good choice. 

http://www.swfa.com/pc-6146-311-leupold-25-8x36-mark-4-mrt-30mm-riflescope.aspx

These are only 3x but would really be suited to the rifle.  Lot's of other good choices out there though.

http://www.swfa.com/pc-3181-270-leupold-1-3x14-mark-4-cqt-riflescope.aspx

http://www.swfa.com/pc-14259-2734-new-burris-3x32-ar-tactical-sight.aspx

[Bravo]

You said super heavy duty.
The cheapest heavy scope I know of would be the Leupold Mark 4. One of my mentors helped design it, I helped the Leupold guy test-run the BDC dial for the M3 version. Those are all fixed power 10X sights, unless you find an older (discontinued) 6X. Some parts aren't interchangeable between the 6X and the 10X, so if you get a 6X - you've got what you've got and that's all.

The next step up would be Nightforce. About the same money, but better.

The next step above that is S&B. The PMII is a LOVELY piece of glass. About double the price of the Leupold or the Nightforce.

All of these scopes have tube thicknesses at least double the industry standard. The Mark 4 line came out of a purpose-built military contract, the Nightforce and the S&B both came out to compete with the Leupold. The S&B, particularly, was the replacement for the Unertl scope on the M40 rifles....... until john williams (now dead) of US Optics stuck his oversized snout into the mix.

Best bang for the buck is Nightforce, IMO, even though I don't much care for the way they do their mildots.

[DSM]

If only the people here actually knew ballistics, gun design, bullet/case/powder reloading and the US and world shooting records, they wouldn't be aiming so high (pun intended) and making such grandiose claims

 Please clarify.

Yep, we're all just poor, unknowing fooktards around these parts.  Just got running water last week and some snake oil dealer said he was a bringin' sumthin called "shoos", whatever that is.


Hey Bravo, I got one of those USO/Unertl's.  That thing is built like the device that destroys the brick sh!thouses.  Had to get the right glass on my M40 and had a buttlaod of CZTE and HFP from a deployment back in '02.  It's nice and solid but that fixed 10x limits it up close. 

I've got one of those 6x Mk4 M3's (still with the original M118 dial too) on an AR10 and it is almost perfect for that rifle.

[Bravo]

I'm sure your USO is a good optic, from what I understand the company improved dramatically after old man williams died.

The thing is, he threatened to sue me years ago...... I didn't like the fact he wouldn't stand behind his scopes. When I said I'd just make sure EVERYONE knew what kind of a business he ran, he said he'd see me in court. Uh, yeah. So I just choose not to own one for purely personal reasons, I'm sure you understand.

But I'm with you on the tube dimensions and such, they're sturdy suckers!

Interesting you've got an old 6X too! In my opinion, that's the IDEAL scope for a designated marksman / spotter's rifle. You got it with the Army etched glass mildots?

FWIW, my good glass was done by Dick Thomas (unfortunately, also now dead) at Premier. It's been GREAT. We had a conversation not long before he passed, about the S&B that Premier is building in the US. Being a variable, I questioned if it'd take abuse like some of the older models - he put those concerns to rest quickly. The way he put it was that the S&B would take much more than anything the Mk4s he built for me would take.

I was saving my pennies for one of those S&B variables...... but the "unfortunate political climate" has dictated that I spend that money on items I feel would be harder to get. Black items, and mags for black items 

All the best there! Hope you don't get conned by buying any 'shoos' 

[DSM]

Yeah, I didn't get too involved in the politics of US Optics at the time.  I've dealt with them since and they have been really great customer service wise.  I'd like to get one of their SN12R's but after getting a different brand scope that's similar I can't bring myself to spend the moolah.  I got one of the handful of their original spec MST100's, before they made the M40A3 upgrade on the turret housing.  I have heard a couple Unertl marked housings made it out from their repair contract and that really got Unertl in an uproar....

That 6x isn't an M3A, it's a Mk4 so wire reticle.  On the SASS it can really run the steel.

I've got the one Premier Leupold from back in '99 right after they released the 3.5x10LR M3 optics.  I paid the extra $10 to get the luminescent posts installed.  Not really useful for much, but neat nonetheless!  I fiddled around and never got their GenII mil-dot before they stopped doing them.  The custom shop charges too much.

[jawara da' X]

Dag YO! I didnt mean to start such a ruckus. Like I said before I am totally scope ignorant. The only scope I've ever used was an ACOG on an M4 at a qual range. It worked just fine but the max range we were shooting was 300m. What do you think is the max effective range for taking deer with a Grendal? That would give me a good starting point on what type of scope to get. A buddy at work told me about these: http://www.hi-luxoptics.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=42 seems like a good deal, and if I understand correctly you can use one scope for several different calibers. Thats good isnt it?

[MickeyC]

1000 yards, if the rifle is capable. AA Arms have a load which, with a 20" barrel stays supersonic at 1200 yards. Pushing 120 grains over the speed of sound should be good enough for whitetail, as long as you can shoot. With a good rifle and Grendel, the limit will be your ability, and only you know that.

[jawara da' X]

1000 yards, if the rifle is capable. AA Arms have a load which, with a 20" barrel stays supersonic at 1200 yards. Pushing 120 grains over the speed of sound should be good enough for whitetail, as long as you can shoot. With a good rifle and Grendel, the limit will be your ability, and only you know that.

So what do you think the range of 18.6 XCR Grendel barrell with the same load?

[DSM]

Don't forget the vitals are what you're shooting for.  When I started working with the M24 you learn first that hits count above everything else.  But, when you take into account an average 20" wide, man sized silhouette, at 1000yds, means all the variables you're bringing to the party and what is being brought by outside forces have to get you inside of 2MOA to score a hit.  No problem you say when people tout their sub-MOA sticks.  A hit is good but you're goal is to put them down permanent.  Head shots that far away are for Hollywood and drinking beers (yes it can be done and that's not the point here) so you go for the next best thing, center chest.  We were taught the 10" circle for a vital hit where you're terminal ballistics should cause enough damage to the heart, arteries and lungs to guarantee stopping the threat quickly.  Now you have to guarantee 1MOA to do that and all that means is all things being equal, if you held perfectly center mass of that 10" circle and broke the shot clean that round would impact somewheres inside that circle.

The body of a deer is smaller, the vital area is also smaller.  Anything smaller will multiply the difficulty.  I agree with Mickey, the round is still lethal and it'll do its job if you do yours.  Unless you can guarantee you won't sling one and get a gut shot and have to track your animal across the county then it's too far for you to shoot.  How far out can keep all your shots in a paper plate?  That's a good, basic test.

[c-bus]

So what do you think the range of 18.6 XCR Grendel barrell with the same load?

Its really hard to say, because none of us have actually had a chance to try out a 6.5 XCR yet. I have heard that it is not uncommon to take deer and elk at ranges of 400 to 500 yards with the AA 6.5 ARs. Like the other have already said, it all really comes down to the skills of the shooter.

[jawara da' X]

Thanks guys, that helped alot. Now I just need my rifle to get here.

[Bravo]

Hunting at long range is a difficult proposition, unless you've got a purpose-built round to do so.

The guy I was talking about with the long range elk used a 338 Lapua.

The sniper school instructor that shot the doe at 1K used a 308 - but there's a story along with that. He'd been shooting at that steel all morning, so he knew he was 100% dialed in before the doe jumped over the berm.

He said he and his spotter were working WELL together...... but the first round struck just a bit aft. Knocked the doe down, but the spotter called the shot too far to the rear. When the deer stood up again, he was already on the trigger with the correction, and it hit well. The reason he related the story wasn't to show one COULD kill a deer at that range though. Same deer, same bullet (Sierra 175 SMK), same rifle, same range, deer facing the same direction, etc. The first bullet punched straight through without much damage - the second bullet exploded and didn't make it out the other side.

He was giving us a "the moral of the story is YOU BETTER WORK THAT BOLT RIGHT NOW!" speech. The headshot on the hostage taker video though (different school) - that's just NASTY.

FWIW, that instructor won his state Sniper Rifle Match, and did really well (3rd place) in the Wilson Match. Among other accolades. His buddy - another instructor there - made one of the longest documented hits in 'Nam at 1250 yards. He's one of the top 10 'most prolific' snipers in American history.

In other words, unless you can pull off that kind of shooting, you DO NOT need to be squeezing the trigger on an animal at those ranges.

My comfort zone is 600 yards, 'cause I know (unless there are extenuating atmospheric circumstances) I can pull off that kind of a hit with a 308. I wouldn't even think of trying it at 1K. Well, unless I was using the 50 

Advocating hunting at that range, to anyone without some real experience and serious equipment, is just foolhardy IMO.

[MickeyC]

Bravo is spot on. It will come down you your ability to shoot. A good 6.5 rifle and load will outshoot most people. Practise, practise, practise. Know your abilities and limits.

[jawara da' X]

Hey, thanks alot for your insight. I really didnt have clue about long distance marksmanship. I'd also like your opinion on this scope http://www.hi-luxoptics.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=45

[Bravo]

Admittedly, I'm an "optics snob" to a degree.
I'm all about function though - don't care about much else.

I wouldn't buy one of those myself.

[MickeyC]

I haven't used one so I can't comment, other than to say that with Optics you usually get what you pay for.

[gr8santini]

For the price range you mentioned, the Trijicon Accupoint scopes are a good bang for the buck, IMHO.

[Bounce19712]

600 yard moose,elk, game shots?

It'd be nice to be prepared and able to make a shot like this...but to risk missing a vitals shot at 600yards is asking for a long search or losing your target as it tears off into the unknown. 

When you're expecting a 600 yard shot, you'll find your elk at about 60 yards.

Read this book:  "The Game Rifle" by Bob Hagel.

[jawara da' X]

Thanks man, I'll look for it.

[marinewmu911]

You may have seen ACOG's which run 1100-1700 with the fancy BDC's and such, but those are also configured for 5.56mm and 7.62x51mm. 7.62mm has similar ballistics to the 6.5 grendel but the 6.5's are better and thus the BDC is off. If 700 is you price range and you like the illuminated scopes Trijicon makes, the AccuPoint line is excellent, using the same illuminatino technology of the ACOG in a variable scope package. 1.25-4, 3-9, 2.5-10, and coming soon 5-20 power optics are available, both the 1.25-4 and 3-9 are under your 700 and are excellent pieces of glass, I've already decided on the 1.25-4 for my grendel XCR, throw in any decent QD 30mm scope mount and you have an excellent set up for almost all the applications of the rifle. But as stated earlier, pick something that you like, or even think is cool, most glass will work